The Sad and Pathetic state of clubs in Thailand

[Guest]

pps oh blew past Guess bar and its average as shit in a craphole beer bar complex had 4 or 5 average looking lbs and 3 or 4 old tatooed white haired geezers in it suping on a beer looking bored shitless

I think you must have been a little pissed yourself and did not know where you were because I was in the Guess bar every night after the soft opening until I went home and I am far from being white haired and have no tattoos in fact I do not remember seeing any who fits that description in the bar.

Also if you are referring to last Saturday night the place was jam packed. Did you actually go inside? What makes you think the punters were bored.

One thing about the Guess bar is it is much nicer and more comfortable than any of the other surrounding bars with its decor, lighting and music and not to mention the lovely ladyboys working in there.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about the place but based on your comments it sounds like you were in the wrong place

[stogie bear]

I think the bloke got lost and ended up in one of the other bars. I've been their every Saturday and haven't seen the place like he described it, but I think I know who the white haired old fart is though!

[Guest]

(mardhi @ Dec. 06 2006,01:01) If anything it will compliment the Nana gogo's - I could easily see newbies who up to now have been scared shitless of walking into a LB gogo, gently easing themselves into the scene by using a bar such as Guess.   Once comfortable, I would have no doubt that they would feel more confident in frequenting the more full on gogo's.

 I absolutely agree with you, Mardhi. I'm probably the ultimate newbie. I haven't been to Nana, haven't been to Thailand, haven't even been with an LB yet. Obviously, I'm interested, otherwise I wouldn't be here, but circumstances just haven't permitted.

Just from the research I've done here, I have to admit that the Nana scene sounds more than a little intimidating to me. Nearly everyone on the board has, at one time or another, complained about the service at bars, having their bills padded, getting hassled for ladydrinks and tips, overaggressive ladyboys, and any number of other problems they've encountered.

The concept of Guess Bar is a thousand times more appealing to me as a newbie than the thought of walking into one of the Nana bars. I'd much rather start off wading in the kiddie pool than jumping off the high dive into a pool of sharks. Everyone here got their start in the scene somehow, and odds are that not every experience was a good one. Jay seems determined to create an atmosphere that is as comfortable and enjoyable as possible for both customers and employees. I commend her for her entrepeneurship, and I only hope that her venture succeeds, because the Guess Bar will be my first stop when I finally get to Thailand.

[Guest]

I love this thread. It's too bad Milton Friedman died recently. In a way, this stuff is right up his alley. Pricing parity, niche product issues, zoning and regulatory issues, market forces, demand elasticity vs services provided vs pricing, etc.

[katoeylover]

(stogie bear @ Dec. 06 2006,17:10) I think the bloke got lost and ended up in one of the other bars. I've been their every Saturday and haven't seen the place like he described it, but I think I know who the white haired old fart is though!

I have not been yet!!!!

[Tomcat]

(Sparhawk @ Dec. 06 2006,17:17) that the Nana scene sounds more than a little intimidating to me. Nearly everyone on the board has, at one time or another, complained about the service at bars, having their bills padded, getting hassled for ladydrinks and tips, overaggressive ladyboys, and any number of other problems they've encountered.

Over familiarity with the bars will obviously make some weary of the scene not surprisingly. Actually in an average night not to much bad stuff happens...and remember Nana represents the sex industry not the Philosophical Guild.

members like to get the flem off their chest from time to time but dont let it worry you to much.....for any newbie the Go Gos will be a paradise the first time you set foot..

Just use common sense and tips given here and youll will have fun.

[Guest]

Doug as stogie has said no one knows you or infact no one knows me so its not personal.

Rooms
Short time rooms are exactly that high turn over over a short period and you get what you pay for. If booked into a nice hotel around nep why add an extra cost take back to the room. Security of propority put wallets etc away in place or safe. The lbs and ggs i have meet always take shower first do it then. cost is 3200 bht a night for hotel with peace of mind no hassels short time room what ever costs plus the worries more cost effective the hotel room.

Drinks
Last time i looked and went to bar in australia singapore malaysia and thailand the drink prices all have been marked up to cover operating costs. Thats how clubs bars stay in business by getting you in the door to buy drinks and food how they get you in the door varies. Nanna is the idea of a fuck and a show. I may be annoyed at prices but i knew that before i left home fact of life.

Lb's GG

They all have a pimp a minder or someone they need to pay even free lancers they have to pay to work in areas for there own protection. Girls in kings cross (sydney) that work the streets pay pay kick backs to bouncers to leave them alone and operate in areas close to the bar.
The cut most varies and i suspect in thailand is not fair cut but most get to keep 60% of what they earn.
Then you take the family factor the rent health drugs food most don't earn enough to survive.

As stogie said interesting debate but ever your views we do things for reasons at the end of the day you put up with things so you get what you came for

[dommy6]

Doug

You say
Guys, I'm not jaded.  I know the deal, and I know the alternatives exist.  I'm just bringing up a pet peeve of mine, and I'm not about to go on some holy crusade to clean up Nana/Patpong/Cowboy.  I'm just saying they are shitpits and anyone who goes in there is getting ripped off, at ANY price.

(dommy6 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:13)
QUOTE
What do u expect when you pay $10.00 for a room? The oriental? Why not take her back home?


Um... I live here.  That means I have neighbors, a job, etc...  Maybe back where you live, your mom let's you bring prostitutes into your bedroom and your neighbors all high-five you when you bring home a two-for-one special, but around here (as in pretty much every other normal place in the world), that kind of thing is generally frowned upon.

I say
Don€™t get personal. Leave my mum out of this. Ok?  For the record I have never even slept with another girl in my mothers house. And I never brag about my sex life.

Anyway it€™s your choice not to bring girls back to your house. Other expats seem to have no problem.

You say
If I want to have a job and any friends, then what I do at night is best not mixed up with what I do during the day.

Oh, and that's not $10 a night for a room, that's $10 for a few hours.  And they are going to turn around that room in under 5 minutes right after you leave, so they're probably renting the same room three or four times a night.  

I say
Yes I know its for a few hours. I never said the night. Still what do expect for $10.00? try renting a room at the ritz for 2 hours and see how much you get quoted. Why don€™t you go to a short time hotel then? But you will have to pay a bit more.

You say
Considering you can get a DECENT hotel room in this city for around $20 a night, it doesn't seem like too much to ask to expect the short-time places to change the sheets more frequently, put out some rat traps and maybe disinfect the place now and then.

I say
Yeah that€™s why there is a whole lot threads in the travel information section about hotels. I never see $20.00 hotels in Bkk being discussed. Can you recommend some DECENT hotels for $20.00 wit all the mod cons, pool, internet access, restraunts etc?

You say
Again, I'm not asking for the fucking Ritz, I just don't see why anyone would "enjoy" the "seedy" experience of smelling rat shit, dried old cum, and moth balls while you're trying to get your freak on.

Please tell me why that makes me a "poof", just because I want clean sheets and some soap and towels for my $10.
I say
Or at least a welcome drink. Fuck for $10.00 I wouldn€™t even give you toilet paper. You know Doug you talk of been over charged by the mafia. This short time fuck hotel is the ultimate. Here you have plaza full for of horny guys which a lot for some reason or another cannot take a girl back to their hotel or home and have no choice but to go to this flee ridden hotel and pay $10.00 or what ever it costs. You play right into their hands because they have got you. The have cornered the market with guys like you. And you are the first to complain about it too. I wouldn€™t even pay a dollar to spit in it based on some of the reports I heard.

(dommy6 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:13)
QUOTE
I€™m really confused here. If I pay 160bt for a beer it costs me 160bt. Not 4 times that much. What is your point here? Are you implying you are on a Thai salary? If so then that is your choice. Your economics don€™t apply to me....  

.....Even the mafia has to pay rent, salaries, utilities, capital investment misc expenses and re coup their investment. Business is tough. Try it sometime.


You say
No, I'm not on a Thai salary.  But what I'm saying is that the owners of those businesses have Thai-level expenses, not Western.  So to them, a $4 beer feels like a $20 beer would to a London or New York club.

I say
That€™s why you pay $4.00 a beer. Because it Thai level expenses. Are reading what other people are also saying on this thread? Don€™t you understand the concept of buiness? That is to recovere our expenses and try to make a profit. There is more costs in bars than just beer costs. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

You say
So everything that the $20-beer club provides in New York, these places COULD provide at $4 a beer and they'd STILL be raking it in.

I say
Bla bla bla bla

You say
So it's not as simple as saying a 160 baht beer is a $4 beer and that's it.  Because these places don't exist in a vacuum.

I say
And correct me if I am wrong because I haven€™t in in Bkk for 3 years but is a beer really 160bt in NEP?

You say
You have to factor in cost of living (and for the bar owner, the cost of doing business).  So when you're comparing prices to back home and you're saying, "Golly! A $4 beer in a girly-bar! That's dang cheap!", well, it ain't cheap.

A 160 baht beer here is equal to a $15 to $20 beer back home.  Not in real dollars, but in relative dollars.  You can't make a crude forty-to-one comparison of the baht to dollar, because that's not valid.  



I say
Even if this is true which it isn€™t, who cares. Its my choice if I go there. Yes I would rather pay cheaper, who would not? That€™s the price and still much cheaper than what I am used too.

You say
Look at it this way.  If Adobe tries to charge you $700 for a 10 cent plastic disk with bits of data on it, that's a good deal, because Adobe has to pay a lot of very expensive people for a very long time to make a very complex program (like Photoshop) and they deserve to make their money back plus a profit.  But if a pirate tries to charge you $100 for the same disk, he's ripping you off.  Because even though the disk is MUCH cheaper, it cost the pirate NOTHING to produce it.  He could charge you $5 a disk and still make a killing.

I say
Well I actually paid $20.00 for Office 2003. looks like I got ripped off $15.00. Thanks for the advice I will know better next time and hope the black market seller comes down in price at panthip or I walk away. Fuck me dead. What do they teach you at Stanford?

You say
So my economics do apply to you, because no matter what YOUR salary is, these guys have neglible expenses (in real dollars compared to an NYC bar), and yet they are charging you a premium.  So again, I ask you to look around next time you are in one of those shitpits and think to yourself, "This is what I get for $20 a beer?"

I say
No they don€™t and they never will. And I will be to busy perving if I am at NEP than worry about my return on a 120bt beer.

You say
(dommy6 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:13)
QUOTE
Well that depends how much I spend in their joints. I hope I at least get a beer. Last time I did.



Yep, you'll get a beer that costs 20 baht down the street.  But you'll pay that bar owner 150 baht for it and you'll also pay him a bar fine of 600 baht too.  So bare minimum you're giving him nearly as much as you give the girl, and at least she gives you a shag for it.

The bar owner, on the other hand, gives you nothing.  He could charge you 50 baht for that beer and still make a killing, but he's charging you triple that, and in return he gives you scummy toilets, sticky seats and his wait staff is going to shit all over you too.

I say
So you want the bar owner who invests $KKKK in a bar to sell you beer at 50bt for only double (standard form what I am aware is at least 250% mark up in enclosed sit and drink places) price he pays for it and then pick any girl who he is paying a salary and take her out for free? How much to I pay the girl? Do I ask her what her basic living expenses are for that day and just multiply it by 2?

I have only been to NEP a few times and apart from the toilets and pushy girls ( haven€™t had a problem with wait staff yet) everything has been ok. If I go into a bar which is unhygienic I will walk right out. Now remember NEP is a p4p outlet. Therefore the bar owner provides a venue to cater for this. He must have girls, entertainment etc to entice you in there and yes make a profit also. Otherwise they would not exist. Do you understand this?              

I really suggest to you next time you go to NEP just keep walking. Then you might discover there is more to BKK than just NEP. If it was me that lived in BKK I would go more for straight GG and LBS.and then I would spend my time in other venues rather than NEP or p4p outlets. Not that I wouldnt visit I would just find other diversions.

And I would suggest to you not to state so many things which are just untrue. It makes you such an easy target to shoot down.

Apolgies for the way i write this as i cant figure the quote feature out.

Regards

[olekunde]

[ quote ] text goes here [ / quote ]

just remove the spaces inside the tags ...

there are many rooms under 20$ in bkk ..
same side as nana hotel, further down, there are rooms for 400b ...

dougie has come to the point where he hates the (tourist)scene. want to be and think he is a know-it-all about los. when you enter this stage, it's time to pack the bags, party's over!

[PigDogg]

(Tomcat @ Dec. 06 2006,03:07) Over familiarity with the bars will obviously make some weary of the scene not surprisingly.
members like to get the flem off their chest from time to time but dont let it worry you to much.....

for any newbie the Go Gos will be a paradise the first time you set foot..

Just use common sense and tips given here and youll will have fun.

TC is a 100% correctomundo.

The first time you enter Cascade you'll think holy shit this is fucking great,

It's safer than the pay for play sex scene than just about anyplace on this planet. From what I understand a newbie could be in real danger in Rio.
In Bangkok it's really pretty tough for a newbie to get in real trouble.

The girls are spectacular.

And the price is cheap.

Those of us who have been around the soi are a bit jaded, that's all.

The things we compalain about are no big deal.

You might like 5 geougeous ladyboys begging to sit with you? From what I understand this might cost 100 USD in Seoul. In Nana you by a drink and do some touchy touchy and it costs a few bucks.

But having said all that, Guesss Bar sounds great for newbie and great for the jaded expat.

[stogie bear]

They all have a pimp a minder or someone they need to pay even free lancers they have to pay to work in areas for there own protection...

Where on earth did you read this nonsense?

[moe666]

Bitch! Bitch!, Bitch!, If you are in Bangkok go have a drink and fuck a ladyboy, prices be damn. What a place fantastic since 1970.

[SPIRIT CRUSHER]

Just thought i'd add my 2 cents in this as well, i disagree with you doug but i can see we are on 2 different pages as im a traveller and you are a resident there but when i go to thailand im on holiday and it's all about having fun and yea ive been hounded by many a lb in nana but fuck it's all fair game when your there you know how it is and if you don't like it then fuck off.

I like to try and keep things simple and i don't wanna make something out of nothing and cause a scene, and if i come up a few baht short big deal it's not going to ruin my holiday.

If it's as bad as you try to make it out to be then why ever bother even going? You live in thailand why not try and find a non working girl. You have been there a while yes? Im sure you have a few contacts by now or go after freelancers and bypass the whole bar thing altogether.

[Guest]

(stogie bear @ Dec. 07 2006,13:46)

They all have a pimp a minder or someone they need to pay even free lancers they have to pay to work in areas for there own protection...

Where on earth did you read this nonsense?        

i worked as a doorman in the kings cross for ten years stogie sir thats where i got that , i was generalising i have no idea about thai way of doing things.

All i know here in sydney the girls had minders the smart ones did those who paid the stand over men also had protection. I am talking 1980 to 1991 where Abe safron tom domician louie bayer neddy smith ruled the sydney underworld where coppers where paid to look the other way or paid to look after those who did not pay protection. Mafa mob gansters have not changed that much they wear nicer suits got degrees even but the i suspect there methods of standover rachteering drugs prostition gambleing still hold true.

I picked up a ts at the taxi club few months back she phoned a male when we got back to her place and said with a client let you know when done. Whilst waiting for her to shower i looked out the window to see a car pull up a guy out of the car light a smoke and watched the building . When she came out of the sower i said that your minder she said yep.

no harm no foul

[doug]

Please learn how to use the [ quote ] tags, your post is almost unreadable without them.

Anyway it€™s your choice not to bring girls back to your house. Other expats seem to have no problem.

Just because a lot of people do the same stupid things, doesn't mean they are correct to do them.

Yes I know its for a few hours. I never said the night. Still what do expect for $10.00? try renting a room at the ritz for 2 hours and see how much you get quoted. Why don€™t you go to a short time hotel then? But you will have to pay a bit more.

For $10? I expect clean sheets, a bar of soap, some towels, and NO RATS.

That's hardly asking for "the Ritz", so I don't see why you make that comparison. And I know that they can EASILY provide those things for $10, because their operating costs are so minimal. People keep saying, "You get what you pay for", but that's my point, you DON'T get what you pay for!!

Ten bucks is a lot of money over here (probably almost two to three days pay for the people who work there). Expecting the bare minimum of sanitation is NOT being a fucking poof or a fucking snob. I'm expecting to get my ten bucks worth, that's all.

So don't compare it to a 3200 baht room, because that's not valid. There are plenty of 600 to 800 baht rooms in Bangkok which are decent, clean and safe. So in my mind, if I can get a nice room like that for a little bit more, then I should be able to get a decent place for a few hours for 400 baht.

Since I'm not, and I know that the owner's expenses are the same as everyone else's, then I know that he probably pays all his bills in the first week of every month, and makes a profit the rest of the month. Which goes back to my whole point. We are paying a PREMIUM and getting NOTHING for it.

Yeah that€™s why there is a whole lot threads in the travel information section about hotels. I never see $20.00 hotels in Bkk being discussed. Can you recommend some DECENT hotels for $20.00 wit all the mod cons, pool, internet access, restraunts etc?

Geebus, man, would you knock it off. You're just saying shit to be contrary. Of course you can't get the fucking Ritz for $20 a night, but I never suggested that you could. And when did I ever say that a pool, internet and restaurants were necessary for a hotel to be "decent"

Geesh, all I'm talking about is clean sheets and no rats, but you keep translating that into valet parking and a mini bar next to the jacuzzi.

Will you knock it off please?

Maybe you're so hard-up for ladyboy action that you can still get your freak on with the smell of rat shit and old cum in your nostrils, but that's not my taste. And at 400 baht for a short time (let's say 2 to 4 hours), that's 100 to 200 baht per hour. So the hotel owner is making 2400 to 4800 baht per day off that room! I may not be paying the whole amount, but I am chipping in my part.

So, yeah, for my part of a $120 a day, I expect them to wash the fucking sheets now and then.

You say
So everything that the $20-beer club provides in New York, these places COULD provide at $4 a beer and they'd STILL be raking it in.

I say
Bla bla bla bla

Right, exactly. You say, "Bla bla bla bla" which roughly translates to: "You've made a valid point, but I can't admit that--because I'm being contrary just for the sake of argument--so I'm just going to gloss over it and say bla bla bla bla instead."

And correct me if I am wrong because I haven€™t in in Bkk for 3 years but is a beer really 160bt in NEP?

A drink can be as high as 190 baht in some places, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure since I rarely go there now because it's such an over-priced pain-in-the-ass.

That€™s the price and still much cheaper than what I am used too.

Which is exactly my point and makes me wonder why you are even arguing with me. The prices SEEM cheap to YOU, which is why you (and every other yokel) is willing to pay them, but the fact is the prices are NOT cheap, and you could get A LOT more for your money!

So, yes, you are perfectly willing to over-pay, because it seems cheap to you, but instead of overpaying in some kick-ass tourist trap with hot chicks, great music, pool tables, a kick-ass light show, clean seats, and friendly staff (which is what you're PAYING FOR), you're willing to dump your money into a shitpit while the staff takes a big ol' dump on your head.

No thanks, pal. You're not going to convince me that some ladyboy fuck is worth putting up with that kind of shit. Especially when a fifteen minute walk around MBK would net just as much action FOR FREE!

Well I actually paid $20.00 for Office 2003. looks like I got ripped off $15.00. Thanks for the advice I will know better next time and hope the black market seller comes down in price at panthip or I walk away. Fuck me dead. What do they teach you at Stanford?

You paid $20 for Office in Pantip? Hahahaha! Holy shit, you DID get ripped off!! You can pick up Office for 200 baht in most of the places around there (because it's two CDs, it costs more).

Yeah, I guess they taught me not to be a fucking n00b at Stanford. Lucky for me .

And I will be to busy perving if I am at NEP than worry about my return on a 120bt beer.

Yep, that's what these bar owners are depending on. They are relying on you not waking up and taking a good, hard look at the bullshit they pull. So as long as the brain in your dick is bigger than the brain in your head, they'll keep on raking in the profits.

So you go ahead and keep defending your right to be a "mark". Good for you!

So you want the bar owner who invests $KKKK in a bar to sell you beer at 50bt for only double (standard form what I am aware is at least 250% mark up in enclosed sit and drink places) price he pays for it and then pick any girl who he is paying a salary and take her out for free? How much to I pay the girl? Do I ask her what her basic living expenses are for that day and just multiply it by 2?

Hahahah! Pay the girls a salary? Hahahah! No fucking way do those guys pay the girls a salary. In fact, I bet in most places, the girls actually "pay" to work there!

It usually dressed up as "make-up fees" or "clothing rental" or "locker rents" or whatever, but those girls are considered freelancers by the bar owner and if they're paid anything at all, they are paid on commission (which means they have to sell a certain number of lady drinks before they get paid).

Why do you think those girls are so pushy about the lady drinks? In many clubs, they have to make a minimum, or they don't get paid. In fact, in some clubs, if they don't sell the minimum, THEY have to pay the bar the difference! If the girls want to take a day off, they have to PAY for the privilege.

Can you imagine your employer saying, "Hey, if you want to take a sick day, you'll have to pay me." No, you just don't get paid for the days you don't work, right? But in these bars, the girls PAY to work there, not the other way around.

I shit you not, that's the way it works.

How else do you think Obsessions can afford to keep 20 girls on the stage with only 5 or six customers in the bar at any one time?

Can someone back me up on this please? Ask one of the Guess bar girls who used to work in Cascades or Obsessions how much they actually got "paid" by the bars, and then how much they had to pay the bar in "fees", "fines" and "service charges".

Trust me, the mafia guys who run those places are making money on BOTH sides of the equation, not just from you.