Thailand, kathoeys, Franck & the whole damn thing

[PigDogg]

(pacman @ Jan. 05 2008,19:42) My new avatar has a nice smile, Dina I think someone said her name is. What's her story, is she a Bangkok girl or where? Does she kiss on the first date?

Last seen working at the Simon Cabaret in Chiang Mai. Never had a first date with her.

Some pics and videos of her are on the site probably '04.

[Snick]

I think we need to get Stogie, Frank and everyone else together in La Bamba and have a big group hug




After that we can have steel cage death match

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

My comments aren't personal. I don't like the way he behaves and what he's done. But I don't dislike him either.

But I DO like many of the people who he has swindled and tried to swindle out of money. Many people who haven't as yet surfaced here and many with varying sums of money from not much to quite a bit.

He's got nothing to say to me, because he KNOWS that I can see right through his charade.

Like many people who talk shit on this forum they don't last long once exposed as the frauds that they are.

I also find it odd that this 'unfortunate' Franck who had so many things go against him all of a sudden (GF problems/business problems/health problems/money problems) has managed to 'stay in touch' with one person but hasn't managed to make arrangements with ANY OTHER people who he has robbed.

Not even an apology!

[pacman]

(ozzie @ Jan. 06 2008,10:42)

Why do you have more right to be angry than anyone else?

Maybe you lost more than anyone else but seems it was what you could afford to lose. So that in itself does not make you the most hardly done by.

People who exploit positions of trust are in my opinion the worst kind.

What perspective are you using? YOURS. Stop telling other people how to feel about how they were treated.

I am not as heartless as some and would and do not wish him any harm, however your defense of him almost makes you a man of lesser character than him.

[/quote]
Hi Ossie. Long time no see.
You won't remember but the first night I walked into 131 I introduced myself to Franck & he introduced me to a few of the guys in the bar. First guy was Big Tel & I think you were second. We spoke very briefly, you were a bit occupied, 2 if I remember correctly, one was lovely, name escapes me.
I almost feel like I am betraying an old mate in answering you but you have got yourself a bit confused in your post.

First sentence I have no more right & no less right to be angrier then anyone else but go back a couple of posts & read where I said "but at least repay Batman because he has more anger about this then I could ever find."

I thought I had lost more then anyone else, Grumpy-bum's insistence that there are other undeclared debts leaves me in doubt, but your assumption that I can afford to lose it is wrong. You may feel that because I don't intend to worry myself into the grave over this because it is only money does give the impression I have so much it doesn't matter. Trust me, I could certainly use it.

Your third point about exploitation, agree with you completely. I said the same several times in my remarks.

Now you get into dangerous ground. Just who's perspective am I supposed to be writing from - YOURS!! I have a few talents but mind reading is not one of them. And the show stopper - "Stop telling other people how to feel about how they were treated."

Well fuck me!! Hands up anyone who can spot the deliberate mistake in that sentence. Not only is it wrong factually, but the sheer arrogance to suggest you can tell me what I can or can't write here but I can't do the same leaves me gasping!!

I am not interested in how others feel, I just piss them off by holding up a mirror to their thoughts, bounce their words back to them so they can hear how pathetic they sound.

It's not the defense of Franck personally I am guilty of, it is pointing out to people who don't want to know that just perhaps it is time to move on with their lives. How many beers have been sunk at the Guess Bar & other venues, where the drinkers have rehashed the story to the point that I thought they were talking about the worst Nazi war criminal. Don't worry, I've heard them.

As far as my character goes I will leave it for others to decide where on the totem pole I sit.

Anyway enough of this chit-chat, how have you been generally Ossie? We never did catch up for that drink & you know one day we will be standing side by side someplace. I just hope we are not competing for the same piece of tail.

Cheers

[Guest]

Pacman writes:

Does that help to explain Naang Faa?
love
Paac Maan

   

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

Grumpy-bum...

 

[rossco]

I have read and re-read the various opinions and everyone has the right to their own.

When I first met Franck he was a congenial guy trying to open a bar to satisfy our desires - he did do that.

He asked me for 50,000 to stock the bar with booze. I explained that he would only need 10,000 (case of beer is 600, Spirits 600 baht a bottle etc, Mixers) I offered him 20,000 baht and he said he would pay back within the month and offered me 20% interest per month. It took numerous visits and cajoling to get my money back and I did NOT take 20% per month.

I realised then that something was up. Request for 50K for stock was not honest. I also wrote a simple accounting system for him to help him manage his affairs. He actually used this to show someone he was "managing" the business. The worksheet was never completed and any records re trading from March to Sept are not usable. He lived day to day and that was it.

How could a guy say he had just invested 450,000 baht in a new bar but was short by 20K for stock (oh yes the bar was already partially stocked)

Initially I supported the guy and the bar on the forums but he kept crossing the wire - sure it is "whore town" but he made some huge errors of judgment that could have impacted many other bar owners. Promoting underage LB's - moderators had their hands full moderating a bar owner who should have known better.

The sites are monitored by BIB and too often he was exposing the scene. For a "visitor" it is up to you but for a resident let alone a bar owner he was playing a very dangerous game - not only for himself but his staff, his customers and other bar owners.

He spoke that he had lived in Thailand for 27 years - yet seemed so naive about the bar game/business.

He ignored advice from many people - good sound advice which would have helped him promote, make money and enjoy his preferred lifestyle.

Remember he only owned the bar for 7 months - March to Sept inclusive. He actually did not even own it - he was sub letting from the French leasee - this is not legal in Thailand and Franck had no legal claims on the bar. In fact Sam is still dealing with Franck's legacy with the Frenchman. Sam invested in "hot air" as there were no assets to recover etc.

He was an expert at spotting a "mark" and had incredible ability to conjure a story/picture to underpin his requirements. I never advised anyone NOT to lend - it was not my position to do so.

He must have asked at least 6 people for a loan for stock and at least that number again for assistance with his airfare!

What really made me angry was that in spite of all the advice from many forum members both here and other boards he was on a route to disaster. His lifestyle could never be satisfied by his earnings.

He borrowed money from staff and often got angry with the cashier when he demanded money which she would not give him.

The "parties" were with inflated prices - check out Stringfellows/Lita's party charge.

He then reduced LB's commission on LD and BF - all while richly entertaining his darling in front of the underpaid/unpaid staff.

I do think that he is an unpleasant character but would stop short at seeing any harm done. He was a pathological liar and always will be. Think what stories he must have told his wife and 16 year old daughter to cover his real activity?

Many of his "detractors" were once his supporters - Why? Because he was totally untrustworthy. My favourite quote from Frankspeare is the delusion of a person on the brink:

"I always follow my instinct even though I know it is wrong"

We were all a mark in one way or another and the stories I could tell (not money related) would fill a book. He seemed to spend his waking hours dreaming of a new scam. Commission to host a party because it was "his" idea. Asking parents of staff to "lend" money and he would take special care of their offspring.

We all have the right to our own feelings but actually he is the loser. He had a throbbing desire for LB's and he has destroyed his own ability to mix in that society in Pattaya.

Franck was always quick to point out the hurt he received BUT he never once considered the feelings of others that he did hurt personally.

He is 63 and I wish him well in the future - he has had his moment of fame and I hope the memories will sustain him.

PacMan, Sam, Batman, and many others have my sympathy and I can appreciate their disparate feelings - some are angry some live in hope and some just get on with it. It is an individual thing and not all of us will react in exactly the same way in any given situation.

[Sombat]

(Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!) @ Jan. 06 2008,06:53) [A thief? He was a bar owner in a position of trust. He used that position to dupe and try to swindle many of his customers. He cultivated friendships for the sole purpose of financial exploitation.

I write in support of Pacman.

But first a question to Mr Grumpy -  Where and when has the occupation of Pattaya Bar owner and also brothel keeper EVER been considered as a position of trust? I would have thought it actually meant the opposite.

Thai girls have ripped more off me alone- let alone all the other fellangs in Thailand - than Francks combined borrowings- where is the condemnation of them?

With regard to the points Pacman makes about the condemnation of Franck and perhaps others on Forum boards. I would like to say as a Thai resident, I see  many members of forums actually behaving in ways more extreme than the behaviour they vociforously condemn in others on forum boards.

I have often wondered why. Hypocrisy sprang immediately to mind. However, those condemning others were rarely aware of their own conduct in town.

I searched wikipedia and found:-

"In psychology, hypocritical behavior is closely related to the fundamental attribution error: individuals are more likely to explain their own actions by their environment, yet they attribute the actions of others to 'innate characteristics', thus leading towards judging others while justifying ones' own actions. [7]
Also, some people genuinely fail to recognize that they have character faults which they condemn in others. This is called Psychological projection. This is Self-deception rather than deliberate deception of other people. In other words, "Psychological hypocrisy" is usually interpreted by psychological theorists to be an unconscious defense mechanism rather than a conscious act of deception, as in the more classic connotation of hypocrisy. People understand vices which they are struggling to overcome or have overcome in the past. Efforts to get other people to overcome such vices may be sincere. There may be an element of hypocrisy as well if the actors do not readily admit to themselves how far they are or have been subject to these vices.

So basically, hypocrites are unconscious, unaware of their conduct. Sleep walking is dangerous either in reality or psychologically.

Here endeth the lesson!!!!!


Flame away.  

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

Rossco... Fantastic post. Thanks for setting the record straight from someone who actually LIVES there and saw everything unfold on a daily basis.

He was an expert at spotting a "mark" and had incredible ability to conjure a story/picture to underpin his requirements...

  Spot on!  

[Sombat]

When I posted, I had not seen Rosscos post

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

Where and when has the occupation of Pattaya Bar owner and also brothel keeper EVER been considered as a position of trust? I would have thought it actually meant the opposite.

I disagree. I would like to think that Bob and Karl would tell me the truth and be straight with me. It's their responsibility to me (as a customer short or long term) to keep me around. PLUS they seem to be pretty straight up guys to me and would not dream of asking me for money to stock their bars with beer!

But from your take on this I can only conclude that everyone who was swindled by Franck probably deserved it as they should have expected him to be dishonest by virtue of his job alone!

Well - maybe you've got a point, there, mate. We should be more sceptical in the wild wild west that is Pattaya. Certainly the scams that Franck has sprung on decent visitors and residents should make us more wary in the future.

I know Macman and I like the guy a lot. We had some good times in sin city. I think he's still a little in deniel though, and still refuses to see Franck as the scamming criminal sociopath that he is... or maybe he does by now!

[Sombat]

Hey Mr Grummpy- just because there are some very fine people owning bars- and I agree that Karl and Lita are fine people- it doesnt follow that the postion of Pattaya Bar owner is a position of trust or ever has been.

I have known some very shady characters who own bars in town. In my time here I have known a number of bars who have sold percentages of bars to customers. I have heard of 6 people meeting up accidentally in the bar to survey their investment and discover that they each own 50%!!!!

[pacman]

(Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!) @ Jan. 06 2008,11:31) My comments aren't personal. I don't like the way he behaves and what he's done. But I don't dislike him either.

But I DO like many of the people who he has swindled and tried to swindle out of money. Many people who haven't as yet surfaced here and many with varying sums of money from not much to quite a bit.

He's got nothing to say to me, because he KNOWS that I can see right through his charade.

Like many people who talk shit on this forum they don't last long once exposed as the frauds that they are.

I also find it odd that this 'unfortunate' Franck who had so many things go against him all of a sudden (GF problems/business problems/health problems/money problems) has managed to 'stay in touch' with one person but hasn't managed to make arrangements with ANY OTHER people who he has robbed.

Not even an apology!

A softer more gentler you then the last time you expressed an opinion about that mass murderer, oops, thief, Franck. See what a good nights sleep can do?

You don't dislike [or like] him either. Careful mate, you could break out with a severe case of humanity.
Just messing with you Mr Grumpy.

I am a bit intrigued about your continuing assertion that there are others to come forward with news of owed money. You seem very sure, they wouldn't be high profile BM's by any chance? Oh good grief, not a moderator!

Anyway the story always come out but there were no new names added to the list sent in by anonymous, only the few on there we know of, & he could have left me off if he wanted to because up till the 1st of Jan no-one here had ever heard of me.

Now just what exactly is odd about me hearing from Franck. Yes folks, the pirate himself contacted me 2 nights ago & asked me to contact a moderator about him being in Bangkok, who has obviously mentioned it to you but before any conspiracy theories start, why would Franck contact me?

Maybe because I have not gone off about him here on the board but stated my situation calmly & clearly. I don't find that the least bit odd, there has now been a couple of messages with all sorts of trivial shit that is irrelevant to me but definitely no apology, no arrangements & no promise of payment. He obviously can't.

I feel bad for anyone else caught by Franck's deception, SB knows them as friends, for me they are friends I haven't met yet. [All except that dickhead who upset Pond, a particularly nasty piece of work.]
And yes I do see the irony in saying that.

One of my many shortcomings is that I am a sentimentalist & when I decide someone is a friend I have never worked out what price to put on that. Do you abandon them for a thousand bucks? Ten thousand? Should there be a sliding scale depending on how long you have known them? Or better how much they are worth. Gee I doubt Franck would have seen out the week, but he gave me a few laughs, a lot of grief & everything in between.

Still would like my dough back.

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

I have known some very shady characters who own bars in town...

So have I. And I've known others that are NOT shady. I take each person as I meet them as do all the readers who visit Pattaya regularly and contribute here.

I don't think that owning a bar should handicap a person socially. It's simply not fair on the few good guys to assume that by virtue of your job you should not be trusted.

There are hookers who I would trust with everything I own and there are Westerners who visit here who I wouldn't trust with a sandwich.

[Mr. GRUMPY (Grrr!)]

One of my many shortcomings is that I am a sentimentalist & when I decide someone is a friend I have never worked out what price to put on that. Do you abandon them for a thousand bucks? Ten thousand? Should there be a sliding scale depending on how long you have known them? Or better how much they are worth.

Very nice, and it's a shame that Franck doesn't reciprocate this friendship in any way.

Your 'friends' do not try to swindle you out of cash.

You continue to believe that Franck is your friend and that circumstances have ganged up on him to prevent him paying back ANY money that he owes. You still believe that his stories have merit and that he feels bad abot being a crook.

THIS IS WHY HE CONTACTS ONLY YOU

YOU are the only one left who still believes his bullshit!

Plenty of people have stepped up to the plate to share their stories and there are plenty more left silent. Do you still insist on taking the line that poor Franck regrets his behaviour and is making an effort to pay back even one baht of the money he stole?

He isn't. He's a conman and he's NOT your friend! Damn - someone needs to give you a reality slap!