How to "fall in love"

[Guest]

Stogie, thank you for introducing May and I. May is with me right now, and yes, she reads the occasional post, like this one. I'm sure she appreciates your comments, as do I.

[doug]

(stogie bear @ Sep. 20 2007,09:23) In fact don't you have this ladyboy 'parked' in an apartment and at your beck and call also?  

Doh! Zing!

Have to admit, Ziggy, Stogie's got a point.

Anyone who frequents the P4P scene and then is critical of someone seeking a "male-dominant" mai noi situation is engaging in a bit of pot-calling-kettle-black.

[doug]

(ziggystardust @ Sep. 20 2007,00:38) Pogue, you and I are in the naive idiots category. I welcome the company.

After 3 years in a continuing succesful LB relationship, thankfully, very thankfully, I do nothing whatsover that you suggest Doug.

At first when I read all these posts, I thought I had dyslexia, because it seemed I read a different post than the initial topic setter. And outstanding members on the forum saying it was good and well thought out? So, I re-read it, and I confirm I do not have dyslexia, and it is indeed was one of the most insulting, worst posts I've read for a while.

First, I'd say you show no personal characteristics that any human being would want to share...I'm cheap, I'm lazy, I hate this, I hate that. Is there anything you like about this country or its people? Why are you here?

Then, as Tomcat (bloody hell, is he the only sane person on this thread?), eloquently stated...what you really want to do is harbor a personal slave, as a pack rat in a remote apartment.

Do you really think you are that you can shove someone in a remote apartment, with no friends, no relatives, do as I say, spend as I tell you, walk when I say walk, talk when I say talk, and by the way, I'm a good samaritan because I'll encourage you to get a job like a "true sponsor"? What melodrama was that added at the end of a perfect piece on how to execute 18th century slavery in 21st century Bangkok?

Hopefully you never execute this, and thankfully, no girl is stupid enough to fall for it.

Again, I didn't specifically call anyone a "naive idiot", I just stated a FACT that MANY guys who go into these situations do so with reality-blinders on.

If you've managed to have a successful, well-balanced relationship for three years, then I congratulate you sir. But you know as well as I do that you are in the lucky minority in that regard.

I do not "hate everything". There is A LOT about Thailand that I love. The bar scene is not one of those things. In fact, if you truly love Thailand and Thai culture, the bar scene is a bit hard to stomach given that it is pretty much the antithesis of everything "Thai".

Sure the Thai guys have their coyote bars and massage spas too, but there's a huge difference between those places and the shit-pits in Nana and Patpong. Plus the Thai guys never frequent places near their home nor do they walk around Paragon with their latest gig.

Sukhumvit Soi 3-Soi 11 could easily be mistaken for a street in Miami, but it's hardly a great example of "Thai culture". So I find plenty to enjoy about this country, I just don't find it on that stretch of road.

Like most guys, I hit up Nana Plaza when I'm horny and in the mood for a quick, no-hassle fuck. I just want to walk into a bar, point at a girl, BF her, take her back to the hotel, and do the things that I enjoy and the things that'll get MY rocks off (and hers too, but only because I like that too).

So the only difference between going to Nana and setting up a mai noi in a remote apartment is that I get a bit more "exclusivity" (I'm not naive enough to think I'll have her all to myself, I'm sure she'll be tricking on the side), and I get a lot less hassle.

You call that a "slave" arrangement, but seriously, you're just quibbling over matters of degree. Any girl in the p4p scene is essentially "your sex slave" for 500-2000 baht short time. Unless you're going to try to convince me that every guy walking around Pattaya is looking for "true love" and a geniune, loving, "emotional bond" at a reasonable price.

Your criticism seems to be directed at the fact that I want to "keep her all to myself". You say that's an "insulting" arrangement and that my post is one of the worst you've ever read.

But you forget a key fact about slavery. A slave is someone whose forced into bondage against their will, and cannot free themselves from it. This girl can leave any time she wants. She can go back to her family, find another apartment or job, or go back to the bar scene. She's there because she wants to be there. If she happens to be a bit submissive and likes to have a guy tell her what to do and what to wear then GREAT. It's FUN for BOTH of us. She gets off on it and so do I. We're both consenting adults, so that's hardly a modern update of an antique, 18th century concept like "slavery".

Dang, if you're going to go that far, you might as well equate a bar pole with an auction block and a mamasan with an overseer. Seriously, if you're going to start throwing around analogies like that, you'd better take a good long look at the bar scene you frequent. It's not exactly pretty, and there are plenty of casualities (like Moo).

I'm not going to try to pretend nobility and "rescue" some girl from that scene (as I said, that would be incredibly naive), but you should get off the high horse for a minute before you get a nosebleed.

If I take a girl out of the p4p scene for the sake of MY convenience, and if I set her up in a situation that is to MY liking, with not too much regard for her opinions, then I fail to see how that is any different than barfining a girl and giving her a good pumping, regardless of whether or not she actually finds me attractive or not. The only difference is that YOU won't be able to have a go at her tomorrow.

Jealous much? , heheh!

Oh, by the way, I was at a disco in Silom the other night when I saw this incredibly hot girl. I walked over to chat her up, but she told me she was there with her boyfriend (a farang). Sure enough, he was jealously hovering over by the bar giving the two of us the green eye. She told me they'd been dating for a few years and even had a kid together. So I gave her my regards and moved on. Funny thing is, the next week I was walking out of Nana when I bumped into her. At first she didn't recognize me, but then I said, "Hey, didn't I see you at..." and you should have seen the "oh shit" look on her face, it was priceless . Turns out, she was headed over to Nana Disco to do some freelancing. Of course, I vetoed that and took her to a hotel for a quick shag. Which just goes to prove my statment that MOST guys who think they can "rescue" a girl from the p4p scene are naive fools.

Her boyfriend probably thought he had his little hottie well under his thumb, but every chance she got she was sneaking off to the discos to make a little bit extra on the side.

So while you and May might be the exceptions to the rule, there are still a ton of guys out there (especially the "internet sponsors") who don't have a fucking clue what their girls do when they "go out with their friends".

[dommy6]

(ziggystardust @ Sep. 20 2007,05:38) Pogue, you and I are in the naive idiots category. I welcome the company.

After 3 years in a continuing succesful LB relationship, thankfully, very thankfully, I do nothing whatsover that you suggest Doug.

At first when I read all these posts, I thought I had dyslexia, because it seemed I read a different post than the initial topic setter. And outstanding members on the forum saying it was good and well thought out? So, I re-read it, and I confirm I do not have dyslexia, and it is indeed was one of the most insulting, worst posts I've read for a while.

First, I'd say you show no personal characteristics that any human being would want to share...I'm cheap, I'm lazy, I hate this, I hate that. Is there anything you like about this country or its people? Why are you here?

Then, as Tomcat (bloody hell, is he the only sane person on this thread?), eloquently stated...what you really want to do is harbor a personal slave, as a pack rat in a remote apartment.

Do you really think you are that you can shove someone in a remote apartment, with no friends, no relatives, do as I say, spend as I tell you, walk when I say walk, talk when I say talk, and by the way, I'm a good samaritan because I'll encourage you to get a job like a "true sponsor"? What melodrama was that added at the end of a perfect piece on how to execute 18th century slavery in 21st century Bangkok?

Hopefully you never execute this, and thankfully, no girl is stupid enough to fall for it.

Im glad there are better writers on here than me. You summed it up exactly how I see the orignal post. Well said.

It will be interesting to see Ozzie's opinion on this.

[dommy6]

(katoeylover @ Sep. 20 2007,12:33)      

 

I think to actually keep someone locked away from their friends and family is tantamount to keeping a slave.

If you are that paranoid  and its that big a deal if you are caught, then maybe you shouldnt play the game.

too. Play hard or go home. Exciting to be a bit daring.

[Tomcat]

(doug @ Sep. 20 2007,22:56) and if I set her up in a situation that is to MY liking

How can you expect to take someone out of society away from their friends and keep her on the side when you feel like it... its not possible , feasible or even a realistic proposition for both sides...

After all we are not talking about some little old Lady who is content to read Knitters Digest in the evening for the next few years but a young adult with a social network which is part of her life.

Sound like a recipe for a suicide note im afraid.

[doug]

(Tomcat @ Sep. 20 2007,23:24)

(doug @ Sep. 20 2007,22:56) and if I set her up in a situation that is to MY liking

How can you expect to take someone out of society away from their friends and keep her on the side when you feel like it... its not possible , feasible or even a realistic proposition for both sides...

After all we are not talking about some little old Lady who is content to read Knitters Digest in the evening for the next few years but a young adult with a social network which is part of her life.

Sound like a recipe for a suicide note im afraid.

As I said repeatedly in my OP, this is a WILLING arrangement or it's a non-starter. period.

You're right, some people would not willing give up their social network, and forcing them to do so would be a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, though, some girls might be smart enough to realize that their so-called "friends" and "social network" are at the root of 90% of their current problems.

How many girls in the p4p scene get peer-pressured into drugs, excessive cosmetic surgery, or club-ratting until dawn seven nights a week (and in the process blowing 90% of what they make blowing)?

Didn't someone post here recently that Moo wanted to get the hell away from her "friends" for precisely that reason?

How many former "superstars" end up wasted and washed up before they turn 25?

So maybe a girl might look at six months in the suburbs as a welcome break from the "scene". Maybe she's looking for a way to break from so-called "friends" who invite chaos and drama into her life just so they'll feel better about themselves.

Frankly, I really don't care what her reasons are. It's not my business. I'm not looking for a girlfriend, I'm just looking for a mai noi or private on-call girl or whatever you want to call it.

All I'm saying is that if I'm going to sponsor a girl, it's going to be on my terms, not hers. It's going to be for my convenience, not hers.

Many guys naively assume that if they sponsor a girl, she'll somehow "appreciate them" and develop some sort of loyalty.

i'm under no such illusions. I'm fully aware that she's probably going to go sneaking off to make a bit on the side. i'm also fully aware that she probably won't break off contact with her 'sisters' or 'thai bf', so in all likelihood, they'll drag her back into the scene after a few months.

Hence the precautions. If some jealous ex-bf/customer shows up, or if some crazy, half-iced 'sister' starts a fight with a tuk-tuk driver out front, it'll be OUT THERE, at that apartment, and not at my real front door (which would embarass my girlfriend in front of all the neighbors)..

It'll also void my sponsorship, which is the point. There are plenty of guys running around Thailand right now trying to sponsor girls and take them "off the market". Heck, sometimes they try to do it even when the girl doesn't want anything to do with them. Remember a while back, didn't someone try to tell everyone to bugger off because they claimed they were Lusi Mustang's husband, and that she was now "exclusively his girl?

So this stuff happens all the time, but I'm a "21 century slave owner" simply because I don't give the girl my home address and home phone number?

Um... ok.

Sponsorship can be done two ways. One, you can open your wallet, close your eyes, click your red slippers together three times and make a wish, "please be nice to me, pretty please..."

Or two, you can say, "these are my terms. if you keep me happy and don't fuck around too much, i'll treat you decent and take care of your basic needs. but i'm not sponsoring your family, your lb-sisters, or your thai bf. period. So, you're a "gig" or mia noi, which means no drama. period."

The first method might work for a while, but when it inevitably crashes and burns, it'll take out your whole reputation, and quite possibly a good chunk of your belongings and savings.

The second method acknowledges the possibility of a crash-and-burn scenario, and instead of pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking (maybe it won't happen to me!), it at least attempts to minimize the potential fallout.

What the girl does with the situation is her business. If she uses the time off for her benefit, great. I'll support that too. If she uses it to fuck around, fine too, just so long as none of that drama shows up on my doorstep, I don't care.

But you're mistaken if you think every young adult craves an active nightlife social scene. That may be true for Western kids, but a lot of these Thai girls come from upcountry and the Bangkok scene can be a bit overwhelming. Of course, tons of girls think hitting Spicy at 4:00am is in the end-all-be-all of existence. But you'd be surpised to find that for many girls the idea of a nice little mia noi arrangement has more appeal than you might think.

[stogie bear]

So maybe a girl might look at six months in the suburbs as a welcome break from the "scene"...

This is the hardest part and I'd be willing to wager that although these working ladyboys recognise what's right and wrong and what's good for them and what isn't, they don't really want to change a thing...

I'm with you on the second apartment idea, but I'd fill it with a supply of different girls rather than one. I'm cultivating a Pattaya harem of my own and I'd rather get a ladyboy from Pattaya over to see me for two or three days at a time rather than having one option that is waiting for me in an aprtment on the other side of town...

Practically, for you, this may be harder as you are in a serious "normal' relationship. Your plan hinges on extracting a bar girl out of a scene which she has voluntarily immersed herself and could leave any time she wanted. Girls willing to "better their lives" aren't working as bar girls waiting for a nice chap to wean them off the money, the drugs and their friends.

In fact their reliance on their social group is the only thing (and, sadly, one of the most destructive things, also) in their lives. Time and again I hear tales where ladyboys with money bail out their friends (and family) and end up with nothing themselves... the evidence of drug abuse is everywhere we walk... they steal from each other with impunity and no regard for the consequences... it's an unhealthy lifestyle... but I'll bet they wouldn't have it any other way and it's a very rare occurance to pull one aside and put forward your plans in a way that she'll find enticing or even worth considering. Certainly none of the better looking girls would touch it.

Good luck, doug... I'd love to hear of you one day putting a plan like this into action, though because it's got the makings of "Private Dancer" stamped all over it...

[Tomcat]

Ok Doug , at least youve taken some time to pen your thoughts and share them.

As Stogie says,good luck,i hope it works for you, my sex drive is not like yours and Stogies and im never going to those lengths that you suggest. Sex is important but not so important as im fanatical about it....maybe i need some Ginseng chewing gum.

Relationships are a nighmare as far as im concerned... my blood pressure is high enough as it is. Shacking up or getting entangled in an apartment with someone- no thanks- once every 8 weeks is enough for me...

Btw ... as an aside
Anyway ,anyone who lives in with a Ladyboy deserves the Iron Cross with oak leaves.  

[doug]

(stogie bear @ Sep. 21 2007,00:54) Good luck, doug... I'd love to hear of you one day putting a plan like this into action, though because it's got the makings of "Private Dancer" stamped all over it...

The plan is already in motion.

I've got the girl all lined up, the second phone, and the second apartment is booked too. i'm just waiting until the 1st of the month to move her in.

My girlfriend says I should stay over there at least 3 nights a weeks so I'm not wasting my rent money , heheh, but i'm wise to the ways of thai women and i know she really wants me to voluntarily limit myself to 1 or 2 times a week.

The girl I've lined up is smoking hot and spot-on perfect according to my specs. And yet she practically leapt at my offer and didn't seem at all dismayed about moving to the suburbs. In fact, when I mentioned "no sisters" staying over, she actually looked relieved, and readily agreed.

Maybe she's trying to get away from some bad influences or maybe she's running away from loan sharks and bad debt. Like I said, I don't care as long as none of it shows up at my door.

Money was discussed (and I said I wasn't rich and I wouldn't be buying her lots of gifts), but she shrugged it off as a minor point. I clearly explained to her that this was a second house--a "second life" in fact--and that she was not going to be involved in any way with my "real life", my work, or my friends/girlfriend. She actually said, "no problem, boss", hahahah!

In other words, she gets it. She's not my girlfriend, and I'm not a "sugar daddy". I'm a no-worries roof over her head and meal-ticket, but I'm not a designer-bag-and-gold-necklace-buying fool to be pumped until the well runs dry.

I will tell you one thing. The first thing we're doing after she moves in is burning all her clothes and going shopping. She has absolutely horrible taste in clothes and desparately needs some Queer Eye for the New Femboy treatment. I don't care if nobody in the neighborhood knows me, I'm not walking around in any Thai neighborhood with a girl who dresses like she just walked out of Nana. My girlfriend also agreed to donate her some of her old clothes (just to ensure that she'll have some "good girl" stuff to wear), and that should prove to be a bit surreal. Every time I picture this cute little ladyboy walking around in one of my girlfriend's sundresses, I totally bust a nut just because the prospect is so bizarre and yet in a way, so HOT. After that will be a stop in the hair saloon to undo the damage the poor girl has done to her hair (probably from bad advice from her 'sisters').

Some will criticize that as too controlling, but really it's doing the girl a favor. She's cute as hell, but her hair and outfits are absolutely horrid. She's young and still getting the hang of "being a girl". With a bit of help, she'll be a stunner, for sure. I may even take some "before" and "after" pics and send them into you so you'll see what I'm talking about.

She seems satifisfied with that arrangement and so am I. I'll let you know if it turns into Private Dancer in a few months. Right now, the plan is to set her up until Songkran (which is about 6 months away), and that's a good time limit, because she'll want to take a break to go back upcountry to visit relatives, and if things aren't going well, it'll make it that much easier to break things off at that time. We'll spend the summer apart and then decide if we want to continue the arrangement or move on.

[stogie bear]

Some will criticize that as too controlling, but really it's doing the girl a favor...

You reckon? Burning her clothes?

Good luck, doug... I can't wait to see how this all pans out.

PLEASE keep us updated. It's fascinating stuff... (and pics would be good, too!)

You've given this a lot of thought and we all appreciate you sharing this, but I'll be honest... I can only see this ending in tears... sooner rather than later!

[doug]

(stogie bear @ Sep. 21 2007,03:01)

Some will criticize that as too controlling, but really it's doing the girl a favor...

You reckon? Burning her clothes?  

It's a figure of speech, of course.

but seriously, if you saw the way this girl dressed, you'd agree with me.

it's one thing to walk down the street with a supra-fine ladyboy on your arm, it's quite another thing to walk down the street with supra-fine ladyboy wearing a denim mini-skirt with camo ruffles and "juicy" printed on her ass and a lime green halter-top/frayed-sleeve thing.

and this was on her day off!

I felt like waving a limp wrist around and lisping, "don't go there, girl-FREN!"

New femboys often need (and appreciate) a bit of help. Look what happened to Nancy. A few years ago, she was often looking a bit man-in-dress-ish, but she must have gotten some great advice from the queens down in Australia because now she's absolutely smoking hot.

So of course I'm not going to burn her clothes, but I figure if I buy her some really nice stuff, she'll gravitate towards it on her own.

[stogie bear]

Well, my own experience of buying and deciding on clothes for Thai ladyboys has ONLY been bad!

I know exactly what you mean when you say you are appalled by their dress sense. I also dispair at the rationale that goes into deciding what these girls will wear!

You have a world of hurt ahead of you, my friend and I want to know about it, every blow!

[mardhi]

(doug @ Sep. 21 2007,02:22) but seriously, if you saw the way this girl dressed, you'd agree with me.

it's one thing to walk down the street with a supra-fine ladyboy on your arm, it's quite another thing to walk down the street with supra-fine ladyboy wearing a denim mini-skirt with camo ruffles and "juicy" printed on her ass and a lime green halter-top/frayed-sleeve thing.

Hmmm Sounds like Jenny from Guess bar - but then she would not be foolish enough to go down this road - but she sure does need some help with her wardrobe. Maybe if you have any left overs you donate them to Jenny

Good luck and please do keep us updated - sounds like an interesting idea.

Cheers
Mardhi

[jhcal26]

Went to Siam Paragon to buy my girl some clothes and she gave me a lecture on how it was "big money" there and we went across the street to what essentially was a swap meet and she got clothes there. I wonder how long that attitude will last.