Removing unwanted ladyboys...

[LadyboyCrush]

"Cos everyone is a fucking pro
And they all got answers from trouble they've known
And they all gotta say what you should and shouldn't do
Though they don't have a clue"...

-St. Ides Heaven, Elliott Smith

[doug]

(LadyboyCrush @ Jul. 07 2009,09:06)

(doug @ Jun. 17 2009,13:26) So let me give you a bit of advice from an old pro.  If you're going to do something illegal, do it alone, and NEVER talk about it.  See, that's how 99% of all criminals get caught.  Because they are dumb.  They either have to brag about how clever they were, or they do crimes with their friends and when their friends get caught, they sell everyone else out to the cops.

uhh, you do realize that PROSTITUTION is also AGAINST THE LAW in Thailand.  

So...

That's an oft-quoted bit of barstool bullshit, but I've yet to hear of anyone, ever, being arrested for solicitation or hooking in Thailand (unless there were other factors involved like underaged girls/boys or drugs).

Quote me the statute in Thai law that outlaws prostitution and I'll give you a cookie. Until then, don't repeat everything you hear in a bar as if it's actually true.

I read an article once about a guy who killed his girlfriend and then drove into the city for a beer. In the bar, he got wasted and started bragging about killing his girlfriend. When nobody believed him, he said, "Come on! I'll prove it to you", and proceeded to take a few of his friends out to the parking lot where he opened up the trunk of his car to show off his girlfriend's HEAD in a plastic bag.

Needless to say, he got caught.

I knew another guy once who was selling fake IDs and pot on a college campus. Business got so good that he put an ad on the bulletin board in the middle of campus.

Needless to say, he got caught.

I knew another guy who grew pot in a field behind his house. He never sold it to anyone, just used it for himself and a few good friends. That is until his own brother got caught with some during a traffic stop and ratted him out.

Needless to say, he got caught.

You get the idea? Criminals are stupid. Ask any cop and they'll tell you the same thing.

They either do something DUMB (like rob a convenience store in their own neighborhood and then go back there the next day to buy a pack of smokes).

Or they do something CRAZY (like try to rob a police station (no kidding, that actually happened)).

Or they do something clever, but then BRAG about it (which then gets them caught anyway because their idiot "friends" rat them out the first chance they get).

So Thai laws on prostitution will not impact the intelligence of the average retard-criminal. Regardless of what the law is, the idiots will still act like idiots.

For example, I used to dabble in the P4P scene, but now I mostly stick to college campuses and malls. I still get booty-called by a few working girls, but it's just "friendly sex", not p4p. So the odds of me ever running afoul of Thai law are practically nil.

That said, I do wander through Obsessions or Guess Bar now and then to check out the latest talent, but having a beer in those places is not illegal, so I fail to see how I'd be risking anything with the BiB even if they did decide to raid the place (an impossible scenario to imagine).

I remember one time I was in Q-Bar when the BiB raided it looking for drugged farang (piss tests for everyone! whoo!) and fake visa stamps. I just walked over to the head cop and said "Looks like you guys are going to be busy here tonight, mind if I head to another bar?" (I said it politely in Thai). He smiled and said, "Sure thing" and waved me out the door.

I don't look, act, talk or FEEL like I've done anything wrong and so cops in Thailand never bother me (and the one time they did, they got in big trouble for it later when my friends got hold of their boss).

Expat BiB-paranoia (and the accompanying tall-tales about BiB antics) is probably due to the fact that a significant percentage of expats in Thailand are former crooks and/or crooks on-the-run. They have good reason to be scared of the cops because they're actually doing something illegal.

People like me, on the other hand, have nothing to fear and it shows. In all my years in Thailand, I've barely had more than a half dozen conversations with police (who weren't friends of mine), and most of those involved me asking for directions and/or getting a traffic ticket.

That's something a lot of knuckleheads fail to realize. When I whip out a Thai driver's license and start talking to the cops in Thai, a little red warning light goes off in the back of their heads. They have to start thinking about who I know and who my friends know. That's the way things work here. SOCIAL connections are THE priority in Thai society, and people who insist on marginalizing themselves in a "fringe" segment of society pay the price.

Expats and tourists normally don't have the connections necessary to "protect" themselves and so they are vulnerable to any scam or harassment the cops feel like throwing at them. But once you show that you're "connected" to real Thais (not mafia, real people), that puts the cop in an awkward position. Suddenly he has to consider the possible ramifications of fucking with you. Most of the time, they'll just play it safe and wave you past. There are plenty more expats to fry, so why risk playing with fire and potentially get burned?

In other words, there are two factors at work here: 1) Criminals are idiots, and therefore deserve and invite the treatment they get, nine times out of ten, and 2) Cops smell guilt (and vulnerability) better than a K-9 unit smells ganga. Acting like you're afraid of getting fucked with around cops is like putting a big "Fuck Me" sign on your head.

[harley quinn]

but ever since I read the statement that most of the BMs here are 65 I have felt like a child again - Best Wishes from Junior

[manarak]

Quote me the statute in Thai law that outlaws prostitution and I'll give you a cookie.

it is section 5 of the thai "prostitution suppression act" or something like that, passed in 1996.

look it up and give me my cookie.

For example, I used to dabble in the P4P scene, but now I mostly stick to college campuses and malls. I still get booty-called by a few working girls, but it's just "friendly sex", not p4p. So the odds of me ever running afoul of Thai law are practically nil.

That said, I do wander through Obsessions or Guess Bar now and then to check out the latest talent, but having a beer in those places is not illegal, so I fail to see how I'd be risking anything with the BiB even if they did decide to raid the place (an impossible scenario to imagine).

I remember one time I was in Q-Bar when the BiB raided it looking for drugged farang (piss tests for everyone! whoo!) and fake visa stamps. I just walked over to the head cop and said "Looks like you guys are going to be busy here tonight, mind if I head to another bar?" (I said it politely in Thai). He smiled and said, "Sure thing" and waved me out the door.

I don't look, act, talk or FEEL like I've done anything wrong and so cops in Thailand never bother me (and the one time they did, they got in big trouble for it later when my friends got hold of their boss).

sorry, that accumulation is just a little over the top!

When I whip out a Thai driver's license and start talking to the cops in Thai, a little red warning light goes off in the back of their heads. They have to start thinking about who I know and who my friends know. That's the way things work here. SOCIAL connections are THE priority in Thai society, and people who insist on marginalizing themselves in a "fringe" segment of society pay the price.

ok, that's starting to look credible.

[Guest]

Really stupid of you mentioning a bar by name. Guy in Ptts was a dealer.

Som nam nam. Stay w. the people u trust, and LOCK the door.

From inside...

[doug]

(manarak @ Jul. 08 2009,05:45)

Quote me the statute in Thai law that outlaws prostitution and I'll give you a cookie.

it is section 5 of the thai "prostitution suppression act" or something like that, passed in 1996.

look it up and give me my cookie.

Sorry, but making up some random authentic-sounding "penal code" act and then telling me to "look it up" doesn't earn you a cookie.

First off, you quoted something from 1996. Do you know how many times the Thais have rewritten their laws since then?  Heck, practically every time they hold an election or coup d'etat in this country they dump their old constitution and come up with something entirely new .

Of course, most of the time that doesn't affect criminal codes, but Thailand is not a common law country and every administration likes to put its own "stamp" on the legal system (plus judges can pretty much do whatever they feel like), so you really need something that's up-to-the-minute current in order to be sure it actually still applies.

For example, there are laws on the books against living off the earnings of a prostitute (pimping) and human trafficking and money laundering, but the "laws" against actual solicitation are so full of loopholes that it's actually possible for a witness to break the law by testifying against you.  No kidding.

There are so many loopholes in the laws that it's difficult to imagine what possible scenario would have to occur in order for someone to actually run afoul of the law. The "Recreational Place" act, for example, has provisions which make it legal for a man and woman to "take a bath together" and have a "massage" in a private room (with a bed).  So while one law might "outlaw" prostitution, another law might actually enable it.  Welcome to Thailand.

The point is, unless you can quote the specific passage in current Thai law, IN THAI, that outlaws prostitution and closes all the various loopholes, I'm just not buying it.

It's one of those barstool urban myths that get passed down from "wise" old expats to newbies, so they can seem saged and appropriately cynical about the "lawless" Wild East.  Most people except it as fact, but I've yet to see anyone actually prove it.

Google it up if you can, the cookie is still up for grabs.  Good luck!

[manarak]

if you make me do the work, it will cost you a full package of cookies.
plus the thai language restriction was not part of the original deal!

ok... I'll give it a try.

[manarak]

I found an english translation of the text:

http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/W...3/E96THA01.htm

[manarak]

and this:

There was The Prostitution Suppression Act of 1960. Customers are protected since they have a right to buy sexual satisfaction as part of long-standing Thai tradition. There was no penalty for customers and only a minor penalty for the prostitute.

This law was passed in 1960 partly as the result of UN pressure. The Act replaced the Contagious Diseases Prevention Act 1908, which aimed to control prostitution

trying to find the text of the 1960 act...

[manarak]

I found a better and more offical translation of the 1996 act, and it is clear the 1960 act is repealed:

http://www.baliprocess.net/Files....Act.pdf

[Naang Faa]

Section 7 should be of intrest of anyone who posts photos
x

[kahuna]

Doug is being a bit arrogant here...I Googled The Prostitution Prevention and Suppression Act
and came up with over 7000 hits...

Surely all 7000+ authors, including a recent one from Interpol, didn't write their pieces from a stool
at Big Dogs...

However the original statutes have been amended, there clearly are codified statues against prostitution
in Thailand...

[doug]

(kahuna @ Jul. 10 2009,03:19) Doug is being a bit arrogant here...I Googled The Prostitution Prevention and Suppression Act
and came up with over 7000 hits...

Surely all 7000+ authors, including a recent one from Interpol, didn't write their pieces from a stool
at Big Dogs...

However the original statutes have been amended, there clearly are codified statues against prostitution
in Thailand...

I googled "Hitler" and came up with millions of hits, therefore that means Hitler is very popular, well-liked, and respected.

You see the flaw in that logic, right? Just because you get a lot of hits on Google, that doesn't make it true. Google "9/11 Truth" or "JFK assassination" or "Roswell" and you'll get plenty of hits too.

First off, we don't even know if this Act is still in force. The Constitution was repealed recently and we've had a lot of political upheaval lately so who knows what laws are in force right now. They may have "forgotten" to renew this law or they may have tacked on so many amendments and loopholes as to make it meaningless. So I remain unconvinced that it is this law is even on the books anymore.

Still manarak deserves a cookie for effort, so here you go:



That said, let's assume that this law is still valid. Check out the hefty penalties for soliciting a prostitute:

Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht.

A 1000 baht? Whew!! I'm packing it in now boys! Now way am I going to risk such a severe penalty!!

Sorry, but the "barstool bullshit" factor is still in play here. Any wise old expat who tries to scare the newbies (or get all cynical about Thai "corruption") by telling them that "Prostitution is illegal" is being a wee bit disingenuous if they fail to mention that the penalty is ridiculously trivial.

Speeding is "illegal" too, by the way.

Naang Faa is right about Section 7 of that Act, though. Apparently, it's a more serious "crime" to post photos of prostitutes than to actually have sex with them. Heck, posting photos is nearly as bad as having sex with a minor according to this law.

Again, this is all assuming that this law still applies, and does anyone here believe that a law is going to remain on the books unchanged for over a decade in Thailand?

But most importantly has anyone ever heard of these laws being enforced. This is Thailand, after all. Intents and deeds have VERY different meanings here.

In the extremely rare cases where someone is actually charged under this act, I'd be willing to bet there were mitigating factors involved and the judge or cops just wanted to "throw the book" at the guy. I'm willing to bet that an arrest would not be made based on this law by itself (unless it involved a REALLY young minor and/or human trafficking). Instead in most cases, drugs are probably involved and/or the idiot was rude to the cops and they decided to pile a bunch of charges on his head just for giggles.

Conjecture, I know, but not outside the bounds of reason, correct? No cop is going to risk admonishment from his bosses for pissing off tourists just to collect a silly little 1000 baht fine (actually, the law says UP TO a 1000 baht fine, so it could be much less).

The BiB have far, far, far better ways to piss of tourists! They aren't going to bother with some trivial fine when there are real fish to fry!

[kahuna]

Doug...you're putting words in my post...All I said was I believe that there is ample evidence that they do exist...Not that they are popular, well-liked, and respected....
The statutes exist and are codified... That's my sole claim...

BTW the way I also Googled Doug and came up with 51,500,000 hits...does that mean you're popular, well-liked, and respected??? You're apparently more popular than Hitler..:

Everyone knows that they are not enforced or very selectively enforced...None more so then LadyboyCrush...Who tongue-in-cheek made the post that you jumped on...I'd wager he knows a bit about Thai laws given his business....

The laws are enforced every so often in Pattaya...It's not uncommon to read where some falang was arrested for filming pornos in a hotel room...

And I agree that it's senseless to discuss something that has little relevance to most BMs here...

I hope Manarak likes chocolate chip cookies...

[doug]

(kahuna @ Jul. 10 2009,08:21) Doug...you're putting words in my post...All I said was I believe that there is ample evidence that they do exist...Not that they are popular, well-liked, and respected....
The statutes exist and are codified... That's my sole claim...

BTW the way I also Googled Doug and came up with 51,500,000 hits...does that mean you're popular, well-liked, and respected??? You're apparently more popular than Hitler..:

Everyone knows that they are not enforced or very selectively enforced...None more so then LadyboyCrush...Who tongue-in-cheek made the post that you jumped on...I'd wager he knows a bit about Thai laws given his business....

The laws are enforced every so often in Pattaya...It's not uncommon to read where some falang was arrested for filming pornos in a hotel room...

And I agree that it's senseless to discuss something that has little relevance to most BMs here...

I hope Manarak likes chocolate chip cookies...

Yes, I'm more popular than Hitler.  I'm like the MJ of the internets.

You bring up LadyboyCrush and "filming pornos", but that's an entirely different matter.  Like I said, Thai law treats pornography and prostitution VERY differently.

Soliciting a prostitute gets you a slap-on-the-wrist fine (at worst), IF they even bother to enforce the law (which they never do). And IF what you're doing doesn't fall through one of the many, many loopholes they have in that rarely enforced law.

Filming or photographing a sex act, on the hand, is a serious issue under Thai law.  Just look at the difference in penalties.  Getting caught with a hooker might (and I mean MIGHT) cost you a few hundred baht, but getting caught with porn (or worse, being a pornographer) can cost you a hefty fine and even jail time (plus they'll confiscate all your cameras and computers as "evidence").

Again, they rarely enforce that law either, and the only people who have to worry about it are the professional photographers and videographers.  Like I said, the BiB have better ways to fleece tourists than rummaging through your suitcase looking for SIM cards with pornography "memories" of your holiday.

Essentially, when you're dealing with Thai law, it doesn't matter what's on the books!!  All that matters is what laws they choose to enforce!

So when I said "only fools break the law in Thailand", it's pretty clear I'm talking about the ENFORCED laws, not the "no elephants on city streets" laws.

And it is very, very clear that Thailand takes it's anti-drug laws a lot more seriously than it's anti-p4p laws.  To the point where they murdered and executed-without-trial several thousand of their own people during Thaksin's "war on drugs".  They do NOT fuck around with drug laws in Thailand.

So the argument that "well, prostitution is illegal and everyone still does it, so they must be just as lenient with drugs" just doesn't wash, and you know it.  Anyone who tries to make that cynical expat argument about Thai's backward legal system is being a bit disingenuous.  

Thailand's legal system is very, very effecient at prosecuting people on drug crimes and the penalties are very, very severe (I didn't say fair, just effecient and severe).  

So severe, in fact, that you'd have to be a fool to risk them.  A life sentence for a dime bag?  Come on, who in their right mind takes that kind of gamble?