Simsod Tongmun

[Rick Shaw]

My gg-GF wants me to go back to her village and have a "simsod"(spelling uncertain) for her. As I understand it, this involves me giving her father some money, some gold and having a party for all and sundry (indicative total cost in the region of 500,000 baht....). This means that when GF goes back to the village to live, which she wants to do, her parents do not have to be "shy" about the fact that she is not married because everyone knows that she has a boyfriend who can take care of her . This is apparently Thai custom and is understood by all to say that the girl is de facto married and I am guessing is another way of giving face to the family.

There are various reasons why I might or might not do this, but there is one huge question that I would like the answer to -

Is this purely custom or does it have any legal standing in Thailand? The question is of significance to me because I am already married back in the West with divorce being out of the question and I do not want to commit bigamy inadvertently!

Any advice on this or indeed the whole area of Simsod would be gratefully received.

[rxpharm]

It sounds like an "engagement" ceremony/party, which has no legal standing in LOS, just as engagements don't have legal standing in most other countries.

Only officially recognized legal marriages would have standing in Thailand.

[deepthroat]

Jesus, I don't have any legal opinions or actual knowledge to impart here Rick, but it just seems insane to me that you would be considering making such a huge investment AND such a public position with your thai girlfriend if you have any desire to remain happily married to your wife in the USA.

I'm not making any value judgements about the worth of your marriage, or about cheating on your beloved - but if security is really a concern for you I cannot fathom for an instant why you would even be giving this more than 2 seconds thought.

On the other hand, I wish I just happened to have $16,782 (that wouldn't be noticed by a wife/spouse/girlfriend) to splash around in LOS to earn a cutey some favor with her village. Must be nice!

But seriously - if you're even asking this, you should already know the answer.

[Jake_Sully]

Sin sod is dowry. It is not a legally binding marriage.

But that's a lot of dough. Question begs to be asked.. "is she a muslim"?

[TTChang]

More like 'SillySod' to me to even consider it ..... but then I'm a cynical old fart, and what do I know? (trained by Kahuna, if you can't tell   ).  And Rick Shaw is a good guy - hope this comment doesn't stop us meeting for that drink sometime!

[Road Runner]

(rxpharm @ Nov. 19 2010,02:03) It sounds like an "engagement" ceremony/party, which has no legal standing in LOS, just as engagements don't have legal standing in most other countries.

Only officially recognized legal marriages would have standing in Thailand.

Rxpharm has pretty well summed it up.  You would be engaged in the eyes of the family and villagers but the law does not recognise this.

You are not being legally wed, and even if you were in Thailand, the UK does not recognise anything but official marriages  -  official as in being legally registered.
Buddhist religious rights do not count even with all the monks in Thailand present.   Not sure how the US works but I think it's similar.


500,000 for a party in Thailand!.......   that's going to be some party.        

20,000 gets you a stage a 4-5 piece band and some Morlam dancers for the night.
Booze for 200 odd about 10-15,000 and by custom the food is normally provided by the family  -  though you will end up paying for it.

You building a house for her and one for her parents?    

RR.

[guydesavoy]

500k is a lot in any man's language. I think there are more astute ways to 'buy' face.

If she is presenting this as being in any way 'official', I think that's a stretch

Even if I were marrying her, I think this is a bit rich. But that's just me

I see no one is saying : "Go for it !"

Hope this gives you food for thought

[Steff]

"Go for it"

[Bumpa STIKKA]

It's a Thai 'custom' only in the eyes of the very poorest Thais who see a golden goose on the horizon who might actually go for it.

This means that when GF goes back to the village to live, which she wants to do, her parents do not have to be "shy" about the fact that she is not married because everyone knows that she has a boyfriend who can take care of her.

Load of rubbish. They may 'gain' face by having an outrageously excessive engagement party but they won't lose face if you skip it and she goes home without a bean.

You can build a massive house for that kind of wedge so to spend it on a party would seem to be a bit much in my eyes.

Your situation is probably a lot different than mine. The money may not be much of an issue for you as it would be for me.

If it isn't a problem then you still have to consider this:

AFTER the party is over you are ALWAYS gonna be tapped for everything that goes wrong (or right!) for that family. Illness, accidents, debts, deaths, weddings...

Having made yourself the most public figure in town who doesn't mind splashing the cash then you are gonna be seen as the bad guy to everyone once you say 'NO!' even if it's to cover a 5,000 baht gambling debt that a distant cousin has rung up.

If you and your GG GF are truly both in love with each other and it's your intention to have them take care of you when you are old and broke then this may be a good investment.

To be honest; I think you are being taken for a ride here. My girlfriend's family would never dream of asking me for anything and although the relatives haven't been so shy about asking for handouts, Olay hasn't given any of them a brass farthing!

Having said that - we are building her family a new house and we buy them loads of stuff we think they'll find useful... mattress, bed, fridge, TV, etc!

There are many better ways you can spend that half million without anyone losing/gaining 'face'!

[Bumpa STIKKA]

As an afterthought...

You can bet that by now she's talked about this ostentatious shin dig with everyone within a zillion miles of her home town so she's gonna lose face by having to tell everyone that this ain't happening.

THAT'S something you'll have to deal with.

I'd be interested to know who put this idea inside her head to begin with.

I'll bet it was her mum's sister! It usually is.

[TTChang]

I expect 500,000 was the opening bid.  The simsod is a dowry of cash appropriate to the sponsor's perceived wealth, as I understand it.  ie as much as he can afford  

That's why BS hasn't been asked for one  

PS. I'm being nosy now, but does your GG know you are married?

[Rick Shaw]

Thank you gentlemen for your considered replies - the primary question has been answered!

As far as I am concerned, now we can start negotiations - years of commercial negotiation has taught me never, ever to negotiate on something that cannot happen as would have been the case if this had been a legal ceremony.

I think that the sum quoted is way too high - I would be looking at something between 10 and 20% at the most, but since this isn't going to happen until mid next year at the earliest, it gives plenty of time for a more realistic figure to be agreed. I don't think that she is trying to rip me off, more that she is caught between her parents and me and that she has not thought this through. But the amount of money will be a deal breaker and so before I go back home, I will tell her that and ask her to come up with a more realistic figure.

Answering speciific points: yes, she is very aware that I am married and that I am not going to divorce my wife unless things go very badly awry. My first e-mail to her gave 5 reasons why life was not going to be easy, the first point being that I was married and the second was that I did not have much money and that I could not sponsor her. She accepts that, although I may have to reinforce the point soon in respect to the cost of the ceremony.

The second point is that she says, and I believe her, that she has only talked about this with her parents. Going back to her home and meeting her parents was very odd in that I only met her parents and nobody else was informed of my visit. I met no friends, no relatives - nobody knew of my visit.

I welcome any further thoughts people have - one of the pecularities of my position is that I have no one off whom I can bounce ideas and certainly no-one who has the slightest notion of life in Thailand. So again, thank you for your replies.

[Road Runner]

(Rick Shaw @ Nov. 19 2010,16:41) Going back to her home and meeting her parents was very odd in that I only met her parents and nobody else was informed of my visit. I met no friends, no relatives - nobody knew of my visit.

The fact she took you to meet the parents means that she's at least hopeful things will work out as you've probably guessed yourself.

But I find that odd also that you met only them  -  I got paraded round to see most of the aunts, uncles, cousins etc. etc. etc.

RR.

[Bumpa STIKKA]

Howdy, RS...

There may be a danger of turning this into a cold-hearted business deal... which actually it really is! You want her and you've got to pay.

You are already familiar with the brokerage of deals and the compromise that needs to be undertaken to accomplish a settlement.

I think the trick from your perspective is to get the amount down to an acceptable figure and make her think it was her idea.

And it's also worth investigating how much you'll get back!

Yes - actually often times the amount handed over is returned the very next day! Or maybe partially returned.

Part of the 'face saving' exercise is for the neighbors to think what a rich and suitable chap you are and another part is to make the parents feel revered amongst their peers.

This is all done on the night of the party and when the hangovers kick in the next day the harsh reality of broken motorcycles and diseased buffaloes once again runs their daily lives.

This is when the father gives you back the money or some of it or most of it... depending on what you have agreed.

Also - were you planning on handing over a wad of cash. They'll like that but as sure as eggs is rice it'll disappear overnight having been taken by a ghostly robber!

If half a mill has already been opened by your GG GF (or her parents!) then you should probably come back with 100,000 baht and settle eventually at about 150,000 baht and THEY pay for everything!

Look on handing over 250,000 baht with the assurance that you get 100,000 baht back in your sticky mitts the very next day.

By the way - it's up to you but don't supply then with any reasons why the amount should be what you say it is. Any information they have on you about your financial situation is ammunition.

You may be more open and transparent about your affairs if you choose - that's your call. But I'd keep every speck of personal information a closely guarded secret.

[Bumpa STIKKA]

(Road Runner @ Nov. 19 2010,22:59) But I find that odd also that you met only them...

It IS very odd. Makes me think that they could be anyone.

Probably a local policeman and his wife up for a quick score.