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  • #31
    Tomcat, last night the weather channel said my local weather would be high of 58 today. I was sweltering in my sweater today as the temp hit the high 80's.

    There is no such thing as consensus in science. The fact that the word "consensus" has become thrown around should be a warning sign. Science is based on facts and evidence- not on popular vote. It only takes one scientist, with one experiment, to disprove a given theory. (although of course you want the test results to be replicable).

    There is no EVIDENCE that humans are causing global warming. There is a great deal of evidence that we are not.

    Computer models are nothing but simulations. They will show exactly what they are programmed to show. The scientists are after funding. If the government didn't have dollars to dole out, there wouldn't be any haggling over it. If those scientists say "there's nothing wrong" then they don't have an issue to demand funding for.

    The facts are these, the earth MAY have warmed about 1 degree in the past 100 years. I say *may* because it's not so simple to just measure the temperature of the earth. Few people stop to think about that.

    Global warming theory predicts that an increase in global temperature caused by human contributions to greenhouse gases would begin in the atmosphere and then later warm surface temperatures.

    This is the exact opposite of what is happening now. Satellite measurements show that surface temperatures vary, but have risen an average of about 1 degree, while the atmospheric temperatures are not.

    The reason is land use. Many climatologists believe that the effect of urban heat because of changes in land use has not been sufficiently accounted for. In other words, it's very possible that 1 degree increase is even a mistake.

    There is no vast expanse of melting glaciers, glacial ice is on the INCREASE.

    As I said previously, governments and grant seeking scientists and eco-weenies all have something to gain by promoting this fear of glbal warming. It is the retired scientists who no longer have anything to fear, and a few more honest souls who are exposing the bullshit.

    The harbinger James Hansen, who started all this doomsaying, was off in his predictions by over 300%. By comparison NASA launched the mars probe, they announced that it would touch down 243 days later at 8:11 PM. They were off by 24 minutes; that was a few thousandths of a percent. Imagine your rent or car payment bill being too high by 300%. Hansen himself said after ten more years studying the issue that €œthe forces that produce climate change are so poorly understood as to be impossible to predict.€

    CO2 makes up .03% of our atmosphere. That's less than one third of one percent.

    If you marked the breakdown of the atmosphere on an American football field, the 70 yard line would be nitrogen. CO2 would be the width of the white stripe marking the end zone. The total amount of CO2 contributed by humans is less than the width of a pencil.

    Aside from highlighting some facts beyond the general conjecture and hyperbole, I'd like to mention something else I almost never hear anyone mention...

    This notion that our earth or environment is "delicate" or that there is some kind of "delicate balance" is pure hogwash. The earths systems are dynamic and are changing all the time. There are many forces and cycles that occure naturally that "correct" imbalances.

    For instance, when heat increases, more water vapor is released in the stmosphere. This creates more clouds, which blocks out more light, which lowers the temperature again.

    When CO2 increases, plant life thrives, which creates a multitude of effects; direct cooling (vegetation areas are cooler than urban areas), increased consumption of CO2, change in light reflection, cycles in the fauna that interact with that vegetation, etc. etc. etc.

    There is absolutely zero correlation between the data sets of human introduced CO2 and the global temperature. During periods of higher CO2 concentration the earths temperature has been both higher and lower. During periods of lower CO2 concentrations the earths temperature has been both higher and lower. There are times when CO2 levels were increasing as global temperature dropped.

    The point is that CO2, or any greenhouse gas change as a factor of global temperature are very WEAK forces. Much bigger forces exist in the tilt of the earths axis and our distance from the sun. Both have been known for years to cause cyclical changes.

    I'm not advocating polluting. Every week I go and pick up litter. As technology advances, we pollute less and less every year. New cars pollute less than 1970's models. Even without switching to hybrid cars, every year people change to newer models pollution is reduced. Private property rights is another factor that makes a huge impact on pollution.

    What I am advocating is dropping the campaign of fear based on lies, and the twisting of science to become a political tool. There is no disaster, social, economic, or ecologic, that more government can bail us out of.

    Increases in government control and redistribution of wealth have failed miserably. Think of every "war on drugs", "war on poverty", etc.
    If you want to see a great example of a bureaucratic control and economic redistribution experiment in science look at the Russian social experiment to improve agriculture. Millions starved to death.

    Comment


    • #32
      (donnnnnny @ Feb. 07 2007,19:24) by the way we have only been able to  acuratly read earth surface temps since the 1970s  with satalite technology, sowhat are the computers using  for  data  prior to this.
      Hello Donnnny,

      The recording of land temperatures started in the mid 1600's in the UK and other European countries.

      Sea surface temperature recordings were not taken until much later  -  probably around the 1750's.

      There was no wide scale (global) temperature recording until around 1900.  This has continued without a break since.
      It was about this time that meterologists realised the importance of land/sea temperatures and their effects on the weather.
      Sea temperatures started to be recorded in the depths but only in a very few selected places.

      During WW2 the science of meterology developed rapidly.
      This was because it was realised that forward knowledge of the weather could be used to further the operational use of aircraft and ships.
      An attack could be defeated by bad weather  -  alternately clouds or bad weather could be used as a hiding place for your forces.

      Shortly after WW2 the worlds navies started a large scale program to record sea temperatures at depth in all the oceans.
      This finally lead to a complete model of the current flows in the oceans being created in the early 1980's

      Modern weather satelites can not only read surface temperatures but can read the sea temperature down to 50-100 metres below the surface.
      In addition there is a whole series of data recording buoys scattered around the oceans.
      Meterological observations are taken from thousands of locations around the world.  There are about 200 in the UK alone!

      It's this collection of data that is used as the basis for the models in the world's meterology computers.
      OK you can say the total picture only covers about the last 25-30 years  -  but it's possible to extrapolate backwards with fair accuracy back to the start of the records.

      At present they are working in Antartica taking deep drillings of the the ice cap.
      As the ice has built up over thousands of years it has preserved a record of the climate each year.
      Much like the rings in a tree show the seasons. This is also being used to further our understanding of the climate and the changes that have occured to it.

      In the last 25 years it has been very noticeable how much more accurate the weather forecasts have become in the UK.
      OK we all like to whinge when they get it wrong     But the simple fact is they get it 95% right >95% of the time.

      How about those as betting odds?



      Grunyen says:-  'There is no EVIDENCE that humans are causing global warming. There is a great deal of evidence that we are not.'

      There is a vast amount of data showing that the earth's climate IS getting warmer.  What we cannot be sure about is exactly how much and why.
      As the weather is affected by many, many different factors  -  I have no doubt that global warming is also similarly not just from one cause.

      We have consumed more of the worlds resources in the last 100 years than were consumed by man in the preceeding 20,000 years  -  incuding fossil fuels.


      I think it would be VERY unwise to discount this as a possible factor.


      RR.
      Pedants rule, OK. Or more precisely, exhibit certain of the conventional trappings of leadership.

      "I love the smell of ladyboy in the morning."
      Kahuna

      Comment


      • #33
        (grunyen @ Feb. 08 2007,09:24) . Science is based on facts and evidence- not on popular vote. It only takes one scientist, with one experiment, to disprove a given theory.
        I understand that very well Grunyen, but we are not talking about grand theory like E=MC2 . How can you adopt a falsification model to climate change, well i doubt if you can . Like Roadrunner states, the scientific equipment these guys have now is getting more accurate by the day.... technology does not sit still.
        Most Scientist now agree that it is happening and my opinion is that its far worse due to the water problem that will follow. Water is getting to be another problem.

        All one can say is that the concensus ill now 95% certain that global warming is happening and that humans are partly responsible if not wholly so.
        So its just the best explanation that we have and may not be correct but where else do you look for knowledge
        ......tarot cards, runestones, politicians, Exxon, BP,...

        At least most Universities seem unbiased to a degree

        The fact is that the world is heating up and we do have a problem, who ever caused it.

        Comment


        • #34
          Not very hot here this morning with 3" of snow on the ground!!

          As they say, its hard to sell Global Warming when you are freezing your bollocks off!!
          seriously pig headed,arrogant,double standard smart ass poster!

          Comment


          • #35
            (sangabriel @ Feb. 06 2007,07:22) [
            The only safe projection about the Europe of 20 years from now is that many European cities will be majority Muslim.

            The changing climate is not nearly as important as changing demographics.
            I agree with that 100%. Also if you extrapolate muslim population growth, they will be the largest group in 50 years in the UK. The civil war will start long before then.
            Sharia law in the UK?

            Ice Age- 20 years time??
            Although the rest of the world be burning itself to a crisp, Northern Europe may go the other way due to the Gulf Stream effect failing to bring the warm air currents due to the de salination of the ice caps.

            Ill be living under a Sun soaked umbrella by then sipping a G&T reading about it, not living it.

            Comment


            • #36
              The facts are that they can't forecast the weather long term, yes, maybe a few days, but thats it.

              Lets look at some facts: Last July in UK, the hottest on record. We were told August would be worse, similar to mediterranean temperatures and to watch old and sick people, The Fact, August was wet and below average, as was september.

              2005 - More Hurricanes and tropical storms in the Atlantic. 3 major named Hurricanes devastated New Orleans and S florida. We were told we hadn't seen anything yet, wait for 2006. What happened? Not one major hurricane in the states. They cannot predict weather long term. Period.

              We have to realise that although urbanisation is raising temperatures in the cities, it is not global, and many scientists can find no reasons for it. Yes glaciers are melting, but on the other side of Antarctica, they are increasing. The world is evolving. In the 1500's they were growing Vines in Greenland.

              Another excuse to hike taxes and control the people.
              seriously pig headed,arrogant,double standard smart ass poster!

              Comment


              • #37
                (Road Runner @ Feb. 08 2007,11:26) We have consumed more of the worlds resources in the last 100 years than were consumed by man in the preceeding 20,000 years - incuding fossil fuels.




                RR.
                source of this please?
                seriously pig headed,arrogant,double standard smart ass poster!

                Comment


                • #38
                  (katoeylover @ Feb. 08 2007,19:56) They cannot predict weather long term. Period.

                  .
                  What they are predicting is that is as the world industrialises (and China and India are just getting of the starting blocks) the amount of emmisions due to Air Travel , cars and factories will play havoc with weather patterns. I would not like to argue against that...

                  I would hope that you were right, but....
                  Bear in mind that much of the conversation about global warming is what is in store in the next 10, 20 50 years... not about the frost on the lawn this morning.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    (Tomcat @ Feb. 08 2007,20:10) I would hope that you were right, but....
                    Bear in mind that much of the conversation about global warming is what is in store in the next 10, 20 50 years... not about the frost on the lawn this morning.
                    That is my point exactly, they can't predict that, they can only make models based on previous data, and inputted figures. All in all it is not an exact science.
                    seriously pig headed,arrogant,double standard smart ass poster!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      This debate could go forever......however i think that we need eco-loonies as a balance to the big Corporations who dont give a damn.....someones got to do it!.. and its not me.

                      After all they dont want paying....they just riot now and again and burn a few flags . A small price to pay .

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        (katoeylover @ Feb. 08 2007,11:59) source of this please?  
                        Hello KL,

                        A little light reading for you  

                        Energy:_world_resources_and_consumption

                        Hubert Peak Theory

                        Resource Wars

                        I'm sure you can find plenty of other sources.

                        The business I am in could be described as heavy transport. I don't have any figures to hand at the moment but I can assure you that the transport of minerals and oil products around the world has grown at least 20 fold since 1900  -  I may be way too low in that estimate.

                        It would be a little strange if we are transporting all this stuff and no-one is actually using it  

                        RR.
                        Pedants rule, OK. Or more precisely, exhibit certain of the conventional trappings of leadership.

                        "I love the smell of ladyboy in the morning."
                        Kahuna

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          in england the experts said we were having the warmest winter on record,this week they are saying we will have the biggest snow fall for ten years

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hello Allstar,

                            When they say the warmest winter they mean the average temparature over the whole period.

                            That does not mean you cannot have lots of snow for a short period.

                            RR.
                            Pedants rule, OK. Or more precisely, exhibit certain of the conventional trappings of leadership.

                            "I love the smell of ladyboy in the morning."
                            Kahuna

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Some arse tried to tell me that we can expect it to be a lot colder for a few years as a result of global warming!

                              It's this kind of muddled thinking that makes me laugh!

                              And who really cares if the world blows up in 100 years. We won't be here to feel the burn!

                              Oh but what about my children and my childrens children.... yawn! Let them do what they are doing now - burn some flags and then drive home in their cars!

                              I agree about the hot air emmisions though... some one has to silence these misinformed bags of gas!

                              Guesing the weather (especially long term) is just the same as guessing the stock market. It's guess work and a form of gambling. These academic turds can't even get it right a day ahead. How can we possibly take them seriously on the basis of two stranded polar bears!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                It's great to see a well reasoned argument from a widely read academic.

                                RR.
                                Pedants rule, OK. Or more precisely, exhibit certain of the conventional trappings of leadership.

                                "I love the smell of ladyboy in the morning."
                                Kahuna

                                Comment



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