Iraq's civil war...

[kartika]

America won the war convincingly in a matter of weeks and then lost the peace in the three years that followed.
Pull the troops out, let the Iraqis have the bloody civil war that has been brewing for a generation under Sadam. It will eventually end with a brutal strongman from the victors side
ruling by fear and oppression. Then quietly remind him how quickly Sadam was swept from power and let them know if they want to set up a terror state- the next invasion will be a "scortched Earth" affair. These people only understand fear and power.

[stogie bear]

These people only understand fear and power.

Exactly... There are some places that democracy won't ever work however long you try to forcefeed it to people.

The place is a total shit hole and should be left alone untill we need more oil then the oil companies can hire an army to get it for them.

It's funny how movies about the future used to all be about perfect societies where peace ruled... How wrong those visons were.. The future is very very bleak for humans and I'm glad I won't be around to see it when it kicks off.

[Tomcat]

Some parts of Iraq do dwell in peace. The media only shows the grisly parts to attract viewers...yes , there is loss of life but its pretty small when you look at some other conflicts or even other man made catastrophes that have occurd in the last 100 years...People who work there know the score and are paid well for the danger factor...

I think about a million people die from water poisoning every month and that could be prevented....but we dont care because the media dont dwell on it....

By Invading Kuwait his days were numberd even if the job wasnt finished on the day. he attacked the west and hard luck. I think we should stay there until there is stability of some kind. You cant always have a " good" war, it dont work like that, wars are complex.

Also trying to re-construct history is difficult as at the time no one knew the outcome...

[Groundhog]

Remember that Saddam was a US ally right up until the Kuwait invasion ... and Saddam was under the impression that April Glaspie (our ambassador) had given him approval to take over Kuwaits oil fields (since they WERE stealing his oil, which was common knowledge). His mistake was going into the cities.

Iraq was never really one country or culture ... it was, and should have been, and will be three ... Kurdistan (which is pretty safe today), Mesopotamia (Sunni) and Basra (pretty much an extension of Iran, though at the beginning of the century, followed India's lead). It's not a civil war ... it's a war between different states.

The only reason to make Iraq one country was to protect the oil fields in Mosul from Turkish and Russian takeover ... and it did work.

[kartika]

This has a tinge of dejavu' from the Crusades topic in the fish box. I remember making a comment (that was rejected by many), about the wartime and colonial powers creating borders and states in the Muslim world that just don't work. Iraq is one and Pelestine/Israel is another. Worth another read as much of what was said there carries through to here.

[Guest]

(Groundhog @ May 30 2007,09:38) There wasn't a civil war before the US got involved ... Iraq was a developed, secular country with a strong middle class and high levels of education.  

All those religious idiots in Iraq found religion as soon as the Yankees invaded. Ultimately, the reason Muslims saw heads off of innocent people is because of Karl Rove.

Most of you passive bottoms and masochists blaming everyone except the Muslims should stick to what you know (how to receive anal sex from Thai poofs), and leave the wars to men who don't like to take it from behind.

Maybe the US and UK should withdraw their troops and allow the Iraqis to Saddamize each other. Keeping Muslims from killing each other is like keeping teenagers from having sex.

[nigel69]

now that the fuckers are busy killing each other, it's time to leave.We have done a great job in sucking in most of the Islamic motherfuckers that were getting busy to kill Westerners, into the Iraq sphere.I for one am glad to see Hamas vs Fatah, Sunni vs Shia, Al Qaeda vs Lebanon,Hezbollah vs Everyone.
As long as these 6th Century primitives and their backward, fucked up Countries are fighting over their brand of Islam/Terror, we can sneak out the back door, concentrate on the Islamic menace contained within our own Countries and leave those bastards to sort out their own affairs.

[Groundhog]

(nigel69 @ May 31 2007,16:07) I for one am glad to see Hamas vs Fatah, Sunni vs Shia, Al Qaeda vs Lebanon,Hezbollah vs Everyone.
As long as these 6th Century primitives and their backward, fucked up Countries are fighting over their brand of Islam/Terror, we can sneak out the back door, concentrate on the Islamic menace contained within our own Countries and leave those bastards to sort out their own affairs.

Intelligent and articulate ...

... uhmmm, have you thought about where you are going to get oil after the MidEast implodes (after all, they sit on 50% of the world's oil, with much of the rest in the hands of friendlies like Russia and Venezuela)?

... but maybe by then we'll all be flying electric hover cars and wearing form-fitting unitards ... just like the Jetsons

[nigel69]

well Groundhog, despite the turmoil of many,many years, in that region, the oil still continues to flow.The mad Mullahs in Iran,Saudi Arabia & The Gulf States( who are of course our wonderful & trustworthy allies) apart from the other suppliers in the region, keep the pumps going, regardless of their fellow Islamists. To the despots that control most of these Countries, nothing will stop them from lining their own pockets.

Other suppliers are also gearing up and new discoveries are being made in Africa and even in places like East Timor. We all know that it is going to run out one day and technology is on the case regarding that eventuality.

[Groundhog]

(nigel69 @ Jun. 01 2007,08:56) Other suppliers are also gearing up and new discoveries are being made in Africa and even in places like East Timor. We all know that it is going to run out one day and technology is on the case regarding that eventuality.

... right ... I forgot that on top of Venezuela and Russia, we can count on our friends in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia

...Oops ... these are all Muslim countries too ... I hope they aren't offended by our posts.

The oil will flow, but I do believe that the Chinese are jockeying to be first in line to receive the goods ... and they're even helping to build the wells (Sudan and Nigeria) and the pipelines (Kazakhstan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Russia, and the list goes on) ...

... Oh well ... better dust off those form-fitting unitards

[Guest]

(Groundhog @ Jun. 01 2007,09:17) ... right ... I forgot that on top of Venezuela and Russia, we can count on our friends in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia

...Oops ... these are all Muslim countries too ... I hope they aren't offended by our posts.

The oil will flow, but I do believe that the Chinese are jockeying to be first in line to receive the goods ... and they're even helping to build the wells (Sudan and Nigeria) and the pipelines (Kazakhstan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Russia, and the list goes on)  ...

... Oh well ... better dust off those form-fitting unitards

What is your point?

[Groundhog]

(sangabriel @ Jun. 01 2007,09:26)

(Groundhog @ Jun. 01 2007,09:17) ... right ... I forgot that on top of Venezuela and Russia, we can count on our friends in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia

...Oops ... these are all Muslim countries too ... I hope they aren't offended by our posts.

The oil will flow, but I do believe that the Chinese are jockeying to be first in line to receive the goods ... and they're even helping to build the wells (Sudan and Nigeria) and the pipelines (Kazakhstan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Russia, and the list goes on) ...

... Oh well ... better dust off those form-fitting unitards

What is your point?

Fairly simple ... nigel69 seems to think that an implosion in Muslim countries (and I would guess you agree as well) won't have any impact on him next time he fills up his SUV and the local pump.

... but it doesn't really make sense ... our li'l ol $2 trillion war in Iraq has already quadrupled the price of oil. Imagine what a meltdown (exploding wellheads and all) would do to supply.

After the Chinese take their share, don't expect either oil or good times to flow in the US

just my $0.02

[post-op lover]

What happened to Lefty and Smuttley?

Anyway, isn't our "nucular" stockpile a little ripe?

POL

[nigel69]

Well Groundhog as Australia helped to "liberate" East Timor, from our sleazy Indonesian "friends", back in 1999, we are in the box seat to help them "exploite" their newly found wealth of oil & gas deposits. Fancy us Westerners being so helpfull!!!
As for the Middle East imploding, putting Iraq to one side, I haven't seen any evidence ,since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, that the various fuckups that live in the region (Jews,Christians,Muslims,Arabs,Persians/Iranians,Sunnis,Shias,Fatah,Hamas,AlQaeda,Islamic Jihad,etc,etc,etc) have done anything other than being in a semi-permanent state of war with each other.I happen to agree that Iraq is a fucked up U.S. mistake, but when has U.S. foreign policy been other than fucked up, since they lost the advantage of British law in 1776.
We had all this going on in the 1970's and in comparative price terms it was the equal of the current price situation, if not a little worse. Our biggest problem is that these resources weren't all located within the borders of "the civilized World".
As for China, never have trusted them for one second.They are the destroyers of everything.They eat and kill anything that moves,they are in bed with every evil regime on Earth, they are totally corrupt and they use there Wordwide diaspora of Chinese to peddle influence in just about every Country on Earth.The rise of China is one of our greatest threats, over the next 50 years, as they suck in everything to line the pockets of the Communist Party & Military elite of their evil Empire.

[Guest]

(PigDogg @ May 30 2007,11:54)

(grunyen @ May 29 2007,19:28) If America had stayed in, they said they would have lost within a year and all of Vietnam would be out of the hands of communists.

Any documentation on this one?

This news is several years old and was barely reported on. I remember a lot about it at the time, but you asked for a reference. I've been looking around and this is all I've found so far. I haven't found a link to the original article yet.
---------------------------------------------------------

In an Aug. 3, 1995, interview in The Wall Street Journal, Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, called the American peace movement "essential" to the North Vietnamese victory.

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American anti-war movement," he said. "Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."