'Proper' relationships with ladyboys...

[Bumpa STIKKA]

We are all full of good advice aren't we?

And there are many members here who actually have made it work.

But just how did they do it and how can we avoid making the mistakes that get us in to trouble?

'Proper' relationships with ladyboys...

Just what does it take?

Help out your fellow members with advice and suggestions or ask your questions here...

[manarak]

maybe you should post a list of members who are allowed to post in this thread, otherwise we will have as always good advice coming from guy who haven't left Oklahoma in the last 20 years.
I certainly won't post.

[Stewart]

'Proper' relationships with ladyboys...
Just what does it take?

2000 Baht?

Or have I misunderstood?

[f0xxee]

Well that didn't take long!

[deepthroat]

Funniest thread going, and it's only just begun.

This should be good!

[f0xxee]

Ok I'll have a crack. I have only been with Mrs Foxxee for 18 months so I am not an expert, but perhaps an advanced beginner. I have had LTRs with Filipinas as well:

1. Live here. I think this is advice that will be common from all posters. Or have the intention of living here. If you really expect a long distance relationship to work save your self the heartbreak and send money to UNICEF.

2. Commit to being open minded and to being educated by a way of life not  better but different. Try to lose the habit of make subconcious comparisons to how it was done at home.

3. Ego. There is no place for ego. For people who are very concerned with face Thais can say things that seem needlessly blunt at time. "You are getting really fat/gray/old" are comments made without malice but which to a falang can seem confronting.  The next point is also ego related.

4. Its been said before, but know and understand your place in her affections. You will never be more important than her mother. Never. Ever. Nor her father or younger brothers and sisters. You are likely to be ahead of the family mutt. Dont let this bother you. There is plenty of love to go around.

5. Learn to be non-confrontational. (Yes, I had trouble with this one.) Find a way to express your needs that does not involve blame. Ok i am a miserable fucking failure at this one (What the fuck do you mean you washed my red explorer socks with my white dress shirts?)

6. Smile smile smile smile smile.

7. Make a point of being interested in thier culture, even though they are not remotely interested in yours, except as a freak show. They believe they are living in the best country in the world, and its hard not to agree.

I am sure there are a lot more, I hope other posters will help out.

[Bumpa STIKKA]

  Good start... Thanks, F0xxee...

Here's something: This isn't so much advice as a warning: You'll never get it right!

I'll tell you my long winded story now - and if my computer breaks down when I've almost finished this and I lose the lot I'll be very pissed off!

A few days ago I berated Titian for something he wrote. Basically it was "Ohm didn't seem to care so I decide for the both of us!"

I wrote some smug comment about him not 'getting it' and slept soundly that night!

Today I get up and saunter downstairs and tell Olay that I'm in the mood for KFC and to grab her hat and coat...

Before we left she said "I much prefer it when you decide for the both of us instead of us having to endure a twenty minute consultation period which usually gets us nowhere and just confuses the both of us!"

Well - that wasn't her exact words but that was the gist of it.  

So we got on the motorcycle and headed into town and this gave me plenty of time to reconsider the advice  (or rather beration - is that a word?) I'd handed out to Titian just a few days earlier.

Had I been wrong? Maybe our loved ones DO need a firm hand and some leadership. Maybe they DO want us to make all the decisions for them.

So on the journey in to town I thought of ways I could make it right and tell Titian that maybe he was right all along and that involving them in deciding what's good for them or where they even want to eat was just a bad idea.

So anyway - we got to the KFC as we agreed and Olay sulked the entire time...  She didn't really want the KFC after all, was annoyed when I asked for an extra BBQ sauce, barely picked at her spicy chicken with rice and only perked up again after we left!

So in future I'll go through the consultation period. It's worth it!

We'll never get it right will we? But that won't stop me spanking out further items of smug wisdom.

So my new advice to Titian? Read everything and follow the bits that suit you! None of us really know anything for sure!

[friedfrunk]

(Bumpa STIKKA @ Oct. 21 2010,13:16) 'Proper' relationships with ladyboys...
Just what does it take?

suicidal tendencies

[PigDogg]

(f0xxee @ Oct. 21 2010,00:22) 6. Smile smile smile smile smile.

Foxee's list is excellent!

Just want to emphasize how important smiling is.


Numerous times my teerak has mentioned how some farang or Thai either smiled or didn't smile at her.

[thegame925]

May I go back to nearly four years ago when I made my 3rd Post on this forum:

ACADEMIA / NON Pornographic Issues » the difference between working and none-working LBs

Post Number: 25   thegame925    Posted on: Dec. 13 2006, 00:52

Before I begin, by way of explanation, I was a member here a couple of years ago, but don€™t remember posting then. I rejoined in August 2006, but this is only my third post €“ I guess I only open my mouth when I have something to say.

Now the post on €œthe difference between working and none-working LB€™s€ starts with the writer writing of €œRelationships€ and perhaps my experience is relevant.

I am English by birth educated in England and America, and lived most of my younger life after university, based in America. I am a Management Consultant. For many years I was working for International Banks and going to "rescue" their investments (mainly manufacturing businesses) all over the world - most of my work was in the Far East and Eastern Europe (although my family remained in America during those years).

I was once married (divorced 19 years ago), and have 4 children and 8 grandchildren living in different parts of the world. Whilst abroad, during my marriage and after, I was serially unfaithful with women, both in terms of affairs, one night stands and (as I got older) p4p.

Some 15 years ago, I met a Hong-Kong based, part-Chinese/part-Malay lady trainee- lawyer (age 21), in a Hong Kong lawyer€™s office, whom I asked out and who, on the fourth date, after being invited to my hotel room, turned out to have a "surprise" in her panties.  

That was my first ever TS experience €“ From that date a true relationship developed. We were together (living together) over 9 years. During that time she qualified as a lawyer, travelled with me when our schedules permitted. She met all my children and my ex-wife and her second husband. I did not tell my children that my partner was an LB on the first meeting, only after each of them got to know her.
Our friends were a cross section of ex-pats and locals within the communities in which we moved, and she had LB friends, a few of whom were €œon the game€, but the majority of whom led that which we would consider to be €œnormal€ lives, in €œnormal€ jobs.

Obviously, during those years I learned a great deal about the TS/LB mentality €“ how some (my partner for instance) €“ liked their equipment and how others wanted to cut it off. There are as many variations of the psyche in LB€™s as there are in the standard male and female minds.

Unfortunately, my partner took ill with cancer (albeit not related to her breast implants).  I quit my job and we went round the world on a search for a miracle cure. Nearly 12 months after the first diagnosis, she passed away. Because we tried to find a cure for her illness in so many countries, I not only lost my job, but hospitals and treatment took most of my savings.

During the years we were together I was never once unfaithful, and I do not believe she was unfaithful either.

After her passing, I left Hong Kong (I found her parents €œsuffocating€) I was sad for a year, then "picked myself up" and dated girls and came to Thailand and had a few p4p TS's, for €œone night stands€ and very short relationships . This was over a 2 year period.

Then, one bright morning, in Singapore, whilst waiting in the reception area of an Accountant€™s office, I fancied the receptionist (part-Malay/part-Thai) whom I recognized as TS. I asked her out, she accepted.

We met at a bar; she said €œI have to tell you something€. I said touched her Adam€™s apple and told her she did not need to tell me anything I knew she was TS.

We dated for a couple of months and then I was assigned to a job in Australia. I asked her if she wanted to accompany me. She did. We went to Australia together.

This was a "romance" where she got an education at college, she was 22 years old, and an Australian visa and played housewife. In return, I got a permanent, youthful, attractive, intelligent "live-in" TS girlfriend. But, in all honesty, whilst we were friends and lovers, we were not "in love" with each other - the "big spark" was never there.

Then I was transferred to Chile (where I could not take her and she would not have wanted to go)  and so I let her stay in Australia in my (rented) apartment until the end of the lease (11 months) and graduate from college the following year. I had paid for tuition etc in advance.

We have kept in touch over the last two years, she has dated men nearer her age, and one man in particular encouraged her to have reassignment surgery. This past July (against my advice) she had the "final cut" and her boy-friend asked her to marry him.

She has no parents (they died when she was a teenager) and I have been invited to "give her away" at her wedding at the year end - so I will be travelling to Australia for her wedding just before Xmas. Her fiancé knows of my relationship with his bride-to-be, and I have spoken to him via Skype and assured him I won€™t try the new €œbox€ before the wedding day.

Incidentally, apropos the girl in Australia, two of my children met her a couple of times, and again accepted her without question. I guess I am kind of proud that I (or more honestly, my ex-wife) raised kids who are totally non-judgmental.

I am currently not in a relationship, mainly because it is impossible to meet attractive companions where I am working.  When in major cities I do indulge in "pay4play" occasionally, (and only with TS€™s - an expensive hobby at European rates) but I have not yet met anyone from that background with whom I could see myself having a "permanent" relationship.

I am really past the age when I should have retired, but I need the money to maintain my lifestyle and provide for the future. However, I do believe that it is possible to meet a TS/LB and have a relationship, provided that the two of you are in the same city €“ it will not work at thousands of miles distance. (I can tell you stories of how the internet has sustained the market for €œmother€™s operation; new oxen; eye surgery on little brothers, etc., etc.)

Looking towards retirement, I want to live in a major city in the USA or Europe and to travel internationally; I have no desire live on a beach in Thailand.

My preference is that I would like to meet a young, bright, intelligent, attractive, pre-op TS who was confident in her femininity and persona - a person who would enjoy being "spoiled and educated" by an older man - who could become interested in art, music (of all types), travel, food, wine, movies, - who, in time and given compatibility, would enjoy travel, etc.

If my preference was for Amazonian blonde GG€™s I could go to Eastern Europe and find a young beauty €“ Would that relationship be any more €œnatural€? My predilection happens to be for Asian pre-op LB€™s (and I am a top €“ not versatile at all).

I fully recognise that whether my partner is a GG or an LB, that partner will not be with me for my aged body, my looks, or anything other than the lifestyle I can provide.

I know I am not "Brad Pitt", but, from past experience, I know that there are things that a young person can get from an older person and vice-versa that makes both sides feel that they have made a fair bargain.

Having written this, and re-read it, it strikes me that when I am ready to look I should be going to the Philippines not Thailand €“ The Philippines exports thousands of trained nurses and care-workers all over the world and a fair percentage of them are LB€™s.

At my age a trained nurse who was also a beautiful pre-op LB, would be the ideal person for me to enter into a mutually rewarding relationship.

And again on the same thread:

Post Number: 34      thegame925                Posted on: Dec. 23 2006, 02:44

A few additional thoughts, in the light of my interpretation of Costassg€™s comments on Barfines.

I think we all fully appreciate that there is a cost implication in any relationship.

If anyone thinks relationships don€™t carry a financial cost, then they are not living on this (or another) planet.

A wife costs - and a divorce can cost more than living with her

A child (one€™s own) costs to rear him/her

A dog costs (collars, leashes, food, vets)

A girl-friend costs (dinners, theatres, hotels, petrol)

A cow costs, (hay, water,) - but OK you can eat it in the end and there is a dividend by way of milk

So we all know what the bar-fine is and yes, relationships cost more than a short time session or a one-night stand.

I€™ve €œbutterflied€ with the best of them €“ and, over many decades, I€™ve had plenty of one-night-stands on both an amateur and a p4p basis.

In my twenties and thirties I could not understand p4p.

All I knew is that I felt I could have any woman I wanted whenever I walked into any room, anywhere.

At my age I walk into a room and although I might physically take up space, I might as well be invisible. I am not a physically attractive proposition to anyone of any sex unless I start picking my teeth with a Centurion Black Card, and even then I might have difficulty without a €œfollow-spotlight€ shining on the card! I am yesterday€™s man and the only action likely to come my way of the type to which I am attracted, is on a p4p basis.

That said, the question raised was about whether on can have a relationship with a Ladyboy, and I was attempting to give an answer based on experience.

I have also had relationships with a wife, with children, with girl-friends, with dogs (the four-legged barking canine variety), bank managers, business partners, etc.

Truthfully, the best and longest relationship I have had has been with myself and the only thing that has never bored me is my right hand (which I have also used for writing cheques).

My next best relationship was with a ladyboy and, before anyone makes the point, had she lived another decade or so and was a 40 year old ladyboy, would I look on the relationship the same way? €“ I am afraid I could not answer that hypothetical question.

In my heart of hearts, sadly, I expect I would have moved on.

and finally, from the same thread:

Post Number: 39      thegame925         Posted on: Dec. 23 2006, 17:58

I never intended to portray anything other than a relationship with an LB is no different than a relationship with anybody, anyone, anything.

All relationships need work on both sides.

All a relationship really needs is commitment by both parties.

So, nearly four years and 2,346 posts on from writing the three posts above, I stand by Post #39 above  and I have also proved that the Forum's Search Function works!

[johnnydiver]

Gee, I am looking forward to how this thread develops! As a newbie with one trip under my belt I feel about as qualified to expound on Thai farang relations as I do about the internal combustion engine. Gas in one hole exhaust out another! So I will let the people that have the t-shirt expound and I will keep my mouth shut! Thanks for a great idea of a thread Mark, this should be great! Learned gentlemen, pray continue please!

[rossco]

Sage comments.

When I moved out here I used to wake up and say:

I think I am beginning to understand my new chosen home country.

When it was time for bed I would reflect and say

I understand Fuck all.

I enjoy Thailand immensely and often after an evening of Thai bashing with neighbours (driving, petty admin, theft, face GF/LB etc) we all depart saying "Where better to live"

I swear as long as I live I will never totally understand their ways. I was not raised here so cannot expect to be totally immersed in their ways.

There is one thing that does concern me - their inability to accept change. Not asking questions will limit their knowledge BUT maybe they do not need it! Confused yet again.

In the West we make a plan and then we execute it - over here there is no plan and nobody executes anything - apart from criminals

[Jake_Sully]

If I may humbly add 1 piece to this puzzle from time spent with a western ladyboy (an amendment to foxxee rule #5)- you may be intelligent, educated and have a degree from a prestigious university - which generally makes you cocky, but don't try to argue and prove yourself right or that she is mistaken unless this directly benefits her.

[pacman]

A proper relationship with a ladyboy is by definition difficult to imagine if one wishes to be pedantic about exact interpretations of the words 'proper relationship'. (Damn, that's a controversial start to my contribution to this thread.) Thanks to the contrary nature of human beings, the indefinable magic of love & the sheer exquisite loveliness of the girls in question, relationships inevitably form &, occasionally, survive.

Apart from the obvious problems of any cross-cultural love affair, combined with the real (or imagined) difficulties of an uncategorisable pairing, being hetero to us but not to mainstream society, no matter how much we disagree. Yet, in many ways, for men of a certain age who have been through divorce, etc, these are almost the ideal relationship. Imagine a partner who can think like we do (when it suits them), who are not heading for menopause & the associated health & mental issues that accompany it, plus have the physical beauty that most women can only dream of.

Add to that the nature of Thais to be supportive of their spouse, to be stoic by nature (when needs be, this doesn't always apply to the 3rd sex), to turn a blind eye to indiscretions when they have to & to be blessed with sanook. A wonderful attribute sorely missing from many western couples. These are all part of the unique condition that is best summed up by the term "Thai-ness".

I had been thinking of starting a thread about our understanding of Thai-ness & I think the topic of relationships is a perfect substitute for a specific thread on these intertwined themes.

So what is Thai-ness? It is the ubiquitous reason trotted out every time Thai's react in a nonsensical (to our western standards) way to any situation or problem. Rather than trying to justify their behaviour, Thai social commentators simply refer to Thai-ness as being the explanation for any deviation away from "logical" western thought.

Here is one writer's view on the subject:

Thais are often uniquely incapable of learning about their own country, being too deeply entangled in the characteristics of Thai-ness that prevent them from seeking the truth. They are hampered by superstition, the importance of image over substance & of social harmony over truth, a natural tolerance of social ills, & a willingness to smooth things over instead of addressing ugly problems head on.

My personal opinion is that Thai-ness is nothing more than a convenient excuse as the upbringing of the average Thai dooms them to a life of ignorance. They get no encouragement to think for themself, imagine a classroom where the students NEVER ASK A QUESTION because it may cause a loss of face for the teacher. I scoffed at the thought saying that someone must ask something now & then. I am assured that questions are never asked. Unbelievable to consider how any education system can withstand such a lack of cooperation.

So when a farang gives advice to a Thai that contradicts something they were told by a Thai, we are simply wasting our breath, all Thais understand they are the chosen people & no farang can be as smart as they are. Plus a Thai can work alongside another Thai all their life & not once will either offer to help the other update their skills or share some important knowledge. If I hadn't experienced this myself first hand, I would not believe it.

Add to that the Thais belief in magic, evil spirits, ghosts & virtually all the other superstitious nonsense that we stopped giving credence to two centuries ago. How do you have a rational debate with someone who is convinced their problems in life all stem from not praying long enough or offering enough merit at the temple? Or that the dog they ran over was the ghost of their dead uncle who now wants revenge. Try it sometime & you'll discover like I have it is a waste of time.

But I don't wish to condemn the girls for these failings, I only want to add a few points to consider when trying to fathom the complexity of a farang/ladyboy relationship. The gulf between us is wider than first understood but relationships will work because the nice girls (i.e. the sweet ones we would choose to have a relationship with, not the hardened pros who have mostly lost their humanity) are as nice a choice of partner as many of us are ever likely to meet. They are superb individuals who have kept their sanity & decency despite being dealt one of the hardest hands life can offer.

I always maintain that the life of a poor (as opposed to the few from hi-so families) Thai ladyboy is a classic Shakespearean tragedy. For them to rise out of their surroundings & find happiness with a partner is a cause for celebration. And farang partners are a good choice because we usually have the resources to keep them well & are not discriminatory towards them in the same way that many Thais are. Sad but true.

Have I offended anyone? Sorry, it wasn't my intention. I know the post is full of sweeping generalisations but there was no way to write this & add caveats to every last point. I invite all rational debate on this endlessly fascinating subject.

[f0xxee]

(pacman @ Oct. 24 2010,10:08) Add to that the Thais belief in magic, evil spirits, ghosts & virtually all the other superstitious nonsense that we stopped giving credence to two centuries ago. How do you have a rational debate with someone who is convinced their problems in life all stem from not praying long enough or offering enough merit at the temple? Or that the dog they ran over was the ghost of their dead uncle who now wants revenge. Try it sometime & you'll discover like I have it is a waste of time.

Hi Paccie,

I agree with most of what you have said, and it explains why it is a waste of time and effort, and generally only leads to discomfort and frustration to be confrontational whether in the porfessional sense-("I think you could do a better job of you did it this way") or the personal- (" I think you would better off if you stopped giving all your money to the monk who is an alcoholic")
There are ways around this however... It requires a bit of planning an forethought to manipulate if you will the result you want without going through the ill feeling of confrontation.

Thais remain superstitous, but the thails I meet on  a prefessional level who are exposed to western culture from the infancy of their professional lives are very capable and do question and involve themselves. My 2IC at work is Thai and also a friend in as much as when he and I are both in Thailand he often comes to visit with his family and gets along great with Mrs F, which would not be the norm given the difference in their status. However due to his western professional upbringing he is capable of judging Mrs F on her merits and also (and this is a biggie) is capable of coming to my office at work and questioning me on matters professional if he sees a better way.

I have chosen to quote one paragraph from your post above however, as a happy atheist/buddhist. (and no, that is not an oxymoron if you consider theat Buddha did not proclaim himself a god, but only as being enlightened.)
I see no difference from thais being ruled by superstion and those who would prefer to believe the world was created in 7 days against all proof to the contrary, or that a man walked on water, was resurrected from the dead, healed the blind, made dinner for 5000 from loaves and fishes etc. Its all superstion for my money.