Discrimination

[stogie bear]

and I hope it won't be so long before we see lbs elected to the Thai government, being heads of major companies, and maybe, just maybe an lb prime minister.

You are being diplomatic with me, but I won't extend you the same courtesy because that's just the way I am...

I have singled out the above quote to start with, because this is where you and Ziggy see eye to eye and this is where I have my biggest problem.

Before we start marching ladyboys into office and procuring seats of authority for them let's try to find out which ladyboys are actually qualified and willing to assume these roles.

Your tone (and certainly that of Ziggys) is that ladyboys are repressed and without a voice. That a few thumps on the table will get things rolling and at the end of the day the transgendered community are going to thank us for becoming involved.

I believe that this is not the case. I further believe that the worst thing we can do for the advancement of ladyboys (if that's a way of putting it) is to get involved with situations that we can't change.

Huffing and puffing over a school policy is NOT the way to go. The school has already said that although this is the rule we won't expect you to follow it.

This is the way a lot of Thai government agencies and law enforcement agencies operate. "Here's the law as it stands - we now have nothing more to say... OR DO!"

Thais accept this and this is why I can't accept the story that May was "shocked" when she 'discovered' this for herself. So - you say I'm baiting Ziggy - and you're right. I don't think he's coming clean with the facts.

His passion and involvement (caused by personal inconvenient situations) have (in my opinion) obscured any rational reasoning and debate.

But that aside... let's have a closer look at your post...

Well, you mentioned NGOs and they do good work to help some lbs - but they don't usually foster change on a governmental level.

Oh don't they? Is this your opinion or is this a fact? My opinion is that they can and do. It's an opinion based on facts...

When Kui started her gig with the very first transgendered 'drop in' center which was based in Pattaya she was a very scared young lady trying to do the best she could with her limited experience of life...

By the time she had finished she knew most of the senior police officers in Chonburi and had used this allegience to help out many distressed and troubled young transgendered people. She had gone out of her way to involve the police in most aspects of the NGO she was running and prefered to be working with them rather than against them. Of course it didn't always run that smoothly but a lot of bridges were built and a lot of young people were helped by the government agencies working with the NGO at the time.

As you also said... They help 'some ladyboys' and that's because only 'some ladyboys' can be helped. We can bleat on and on about the 'big picture' and the consequenses of their actions till the cows come home and for 99% of lbs (and all Thais) it will fall in vain on deaf ears.... so you do what you can and hope a little rubs off.

This kind of attitude may be fine for day to day living - I don't care about anything except my own life - don't disturb my comfort zone - you can do what you want to anyone else.

You have expertly summed up the mainstream way of thinking for almost every Thai person. Most Thai ladyboys will live quite happily knowing that things won't always go their way. That their options are limited and that they will have to work harder to achieve less in some circumstances.

But for every ladyboy living in Thailand there is another transgenedered person or a person who is sexualy unsure of themselves who won't ever ever have any of the hopes and dreams that Thailand offers.

You say changes are unlikely in our lifetime... I disagree. You say legislation hasn't had the nod yet... but it's being talked about and it's being considered. It will happen...

Do you care if a lb has no chance at a higher level job because the military won't modify her "mental illness" exemption record - even though they have decided to stop doing this for lbs today?

Dear, oh dear... Now - here you are playing fast and loose with the reality of the situation and this is why I get so cross with Ziggy...

Can you honestly tell me that a person qualified for a job has been turned down by human resources because the army has said that she's a nutter? I'll wager that it's never happened and I'll go further and say that the military records on ladyboys are of supreme indifference to recruiters.

Kui certainly did NOT have these records thrown at her and she's never been turned down for a job that she has applied for either...

Kui is mentioned because she's NOT special. She's just a regular girl who has gone to school, gone to college and gone into the work force. She's very typical of a young Thai person.

Asking me if I (or us readers) 'care' about things that don't work in favour of ladybys is a moot point. You should be asking THEM! Or at least asking them why they don't care enough to insist on changing things...

There's no national community of Thai ladyboys is there? Why is that? Oh, sure there's a fluffy club of hopeful extroverts buried deep inside 'sanook.com' but why isn't there a 'movement?' Why don't ladyboys have political clout? Why is it that ladyboys are made to look like fools on mainstream pop TV?

Think about the answers to these questions and you may come away with the feeling that (like almost all Thais) ladyboys don't really want to step up to the plate and make waves.... they don't want to disgrace their families by making a nuisance of themselves, but worst of all.... they may just be happy enough to let things happen in the normal way that things happen in thailand...

I'll continue to play down some of these emotional posts that are cropping up about the lot of our beloved ladyboys because it's my view that they are NOT as bad as they are being made out to be and in addition to that I believe (along with them) that the future actually looks good...

[ziggystardust]

There are always exceptions positive and negative in any debate on any topic in the world. So the fact that Jay might not have been inconvenienced in the things I mentioned doesn't mean others weren't Mardhi. Likewise for Kui. And these two people we'd have to say are not 'average'. They are exceptional. I note she was inconvenienced in Singapore, and she is unlikely to forget that anytime soon; and you too I'd suspect. It leaves a lingering disgust in one's mind.

I actually do ask a lot of LBs about this, including of course, my partner, who tells me the feelings of the 'community' as well. As foreigners we don't feel these undercurrents unless you have a very trusted and long-term friendship with some girls, as I do, and as Rx is building. They simply don't talk about it a lot, because it is self evident to them. But near every LB has a feeling of hopelessness in getting jobs, or rights (like "Miss" on their passport) due to being a LB, and feels disgust at rejection from whatever establishment.

In my last discussion with Kui, she noted how there is an uncomfortable increase in the number of places rejecting LB entrance in Pattaya. Far, far more than what I mentioned. I don't actually know of anything getting better except for the minor constitution item, which likely will have no effect. All the items I mentioned are real and continuing, and the number of places rejecting LBs increasing (and have increased in my short time in this country). And I do not believe this has anything to do with foreigners. These are Thai people taking the actions (University policy, passport policy, police, insurance company, employers).

As for who is best to help, in every minority struggle that has ever happened, outsiders have been involved to support change. Often people don't have the know-how or means to do anything, like take something to a newspaper, or court, or some other action. I don't know of any LB NGO organization in Thailand. Kui's drop-in center is great, to help teach girls how to stay out of trouble and have a safe haven, but it does nothing in this area is my observation.

Finally, I suppose I am a bad writer; because the main essence of my article, which I thought was clearly stated at the end, is that Thailand is a very good place for LBs comparatively, but it has an undercurrent that is not so great which we often don't see, and part of the point of the article was to open your eyes to that undercurrent. And the point is to not to change the world order, but rather to simply allow LBs the 'same' privileges any Thai lady has today. I think that's a very reasonable objective.

As for playing down emotional posts, there was nothing emotional in mine; and I would appreciate a focus on the post vs any comments on my partner or whether I am truthful, or my employment.

[rxpharm]

Ok, this is gettting better, more debate on the actual topic!

You asked me for proof about the problems with past military exemptions with the stamp of "mental illness" being a problem here is a case:

AS: Anjaree group started out working on LGBT rights but now we are working within the framework of sexual rights for everyone with a deep understanding of the double and triple oppression that LGBT in Thai society face. We are planning to propose the drafting of the anti-discrimination bill based on Section 30 of the Constitution and to ensure that the bill includes LGBT as a protected group. Last year, a network of LGBT groups under the name of Network for Sexual Diversities began working on the case of a transgender (MTF) woman who went through the conscription process. She was given an exemption paper saying, she is €œpermanently mentally ill.€ All Thai men are conscripted into the military and need to show their conscription papers when they apply for a job. Because her paper said, permanently mentally ill, she could not get an apprenticeship during her third year in university. We helped file a grievance report to the national Human Rights Commission and negotiated with the Ministry of Defense on changing the documentation for this trans woman. The Ministry said they were not authorized to change the clause without court permission. The lawyers took it to court and the court has decided there are sufficient grounds to hear this case. If we win, this will set a precedent and the military will have to remove the clause, €œpermanently mentally ill€ as the reason for giving an exemption. It will open thousands of new doors of employment for trans women. It will dramatically change their life for the better.

This is an excerpt of an interview the International Gay and Lesbian Rights Organization had with Anjana Suvarnananda founder of Anjaree Foundation a group that is promoting LBGT rights in Thailand.

This is the link to the full interview and article. Thai LBGT Activists Fight for Consitutional Protection

It is good that NGOs do help some Thai lbs - and we agree on this point. What is more salient is that legislative changes can benefit more lbs.

This upcoming election is critical as the new government could easily ditch all the proposed legislative changes. Yes, Thai politics is a murky mess that we can't really grasp, but if certain parties gain power, it is probable there will be no further discussion of legislative change to improve the lot of lbs, gays and lesbians.

Thai people taking action on their own is great - but legislative change is also necessary.

As for lbs qualified to eventually take positions of power - I didn't say it will happen tomorrow - the future is just that - how long it will be from today is something unknown. There are some well educated, hard working and ambitious Thai lbs, the board members have have heard of two examples already. Do they have ambitions to try for leadership positions - or are those thoughts put out of mind because of the current situation that exists for lbs? It becomes a bit like the chicken vs the egg. However, they would be more likely to try for these kinds of positions if obstacles are removed/minimized.

Would you be proud and excited to support Kui if she decided to give it a try? I think you would be and certainly I would too!

[stogie bear]

As for playing down emotional posts, there was nothing emotional in mine; and I would appreciate a focus on the post vs any comments on my partner or whether I am truthful, or my employment.

Erm, well... your posts are peppered with emotional rhetoric and it's YOU that have involved your partner in this online debate... And... I'll decide whether or not to challenge your veracity - not you! Or are your posts beyond challenging?

Because her paper said, permanently mentally ill, she could not get an apprenticeship during her third year in university.

She's using this as a political football and frankly I don't believe it... because she goes on to say...

Transgender people may be visible in society but they can only be makeup artists, hairdressers, cabaret showgirls and waitresses. Transgender people with high education can€™t get a professional job...

What a load of shit and it's exactly the kind of rubbish that is setting transgendered people back.

Sorry... I'm not convinced that this particular political machine is doing Thai ladyboys much good at all by publishing hysterical nonsense like this, but then again... any publicity is good, I suppose.

There are injustices, for sure. There are changes to be made - there's no doubt. But every minority in Thailand from Arabs to cripples face the same if not worse battles ahead.

[divertwo]

http://www.intraa.org/story/kimcocoelected Here is an interesting milestone in Hawaii for transgendered people..........

[stogie bear]

I have a general sceptisism for organizations who use individual situations and broadcast them as a generalization on the welfare of that particular minority group. Having taken part in assembling and contributing to recent television documentaries on transgender issues I can tell you right now that what you see and read isn't always what is actually happening.

I'll give you an example...

The Middle Sexes - HBO/Channel 4 Documentary...

The impression was given that Kui was an only child who had gone through her transsexualism despite being the only breadwinner for her old, poor and decrepid family. Well - actually she has a brother who works for a tyre company in Japan and actually contributes a lot of money back to his family in Rayong. During the time Kui and I lived together she sent very little money home.

It's easy to twist the actual facts to make your political gains and it's easy to bury things that don't work for you...

I'd say that the entire documentary, although interesting, was somewhat fictional in it's portrayal of the real situations.

That's why I can't take on these so called examples at face value. It's NOT a fact because the Thai LGBT activists and Anjana Suvarnananda say it is. In fact this politically contrived piece has more than one inconsistancy that is obvious to anyone on the ground here in Thailand.

This situation of half truths and emotionally contrived bollocks has its' integrity further diminished when you have a half wit like Grace Poore doing the interview...

Here's just one of the fucking stupid questions that she asked...

"Is katoey also used for butch lesbians?"

   For Fucks sake!

But the interviewers real agenda comes through with questions like this...

"Is the homophobia in Thai society driven by religion or culture or something else?"

"What role does religious homophobia play in Thailand?"

Can anyone spot the direction and bias of this interview?

Sorry, but this shallow piece of trashy journalism has no credibility with me and frankly only sets out to disfigure the image of ladyboys in Thailand as reactonary lost causes.

[rxpharm]

You asked for a specific example where a Thai lb was prevented from getting a job because of the "mental illness" exemption stamp from the Military and I gave it to you. The rest of the interview may be slanted, and of course this happens, but the case is real and has been taken to court. In fact Kui told me about this when I dropped by Sisters' Home in 2006. She told me that she was going to join the Anjaree group to present the case. If there is one case, you can be sure it is like the tip of an ice berg - there are more.

Ask her about it and let me know if I was wrong in remembering what she told me.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater - there may be a slant the interview has, but there is some truth in what is written too.

The case was also printed in the major Thai English papers too, but I couldn't find it searching their sites.

[stogie bear]

Well... That's kind of my point... there may be some truth in the piece.

If I heard it from Kui I'd believe it for sure and if Kui told you then I am convinced beyond doubt.

Thanks for the update. I'd still like to hear the story from 'the other side!' wouldn't you?

[Fred_Nguyen]

(divertwo @ Dec. 13 2007,17:29) http://www.intraa.org/story/kimcocoelected   Here is an interesting milestone in Hawaii for transgendered people..........

Time will tell.

It's not necessarily a milestone if the electee ends up being a buffoon or an ineffective politician.

There are plenty of examples of politicians who are members of minority groups who have been elected and subsequently distinguished themselves in a negative sense, thereby failing to advance everyone they represent.

The minority politicians who are effective are those who are notable for more than their minority status.

I stipulate that the milestone is not in electing someone, it is if someone who is elected, and who is part of a minority, makes a good name for him or herself by advancing the needs of the constituency, not by trying to advance themselves or their pet causes.

[stogie bear]

[buttafly]

Per usual for this sub-forum, a big Yaaawwwwwnnnn......

[ziggystardust]

Well...there's always "What LB shoots the biggest wad." I suppose.

So I asked 3 LBs about their University policy and experience.

It is HIGHLY IRREGULAR for a registrar, a person in a very considerable position of power (allowing your entry into a university or not) to tell a student during registration they must wear men's clothers. This is not policy at all Universities. It is somewhat like saying, "This University is different and we will enforce it and if you won't follow it, you can't come here!"... and thus this (has been) and would be a major surprise / shock for anyone hearing it. In all 3 cases, none had ever heard of it at their University or from any of their friends.

The military designation for mental illness has been applied to pretty much ALL LBs we know as it was standard practice for decades. So pretty much every LB discussed on this forum must show this "permanently mentally ill" paper to any job of substance to which they apply. Employers, of course, can abuse this (use it as an excuse to reject a talented person), or may simply have a policy of rejecting previously mentally ill people.

[divertwo]

....so you're saying that when applying for a job in Thailand, the applicant must show a military record?

[stogie bear]

If they have a military record it will be a part of their CV...

Military service these days is a lucky dip. You pick a ball and the color determines if you are lucky or not. Ladyboys are exempt but still have to show up to get signed off.

Every single ladyboy I have spoken to about it have said the same thing.... they were nervous about going but ended up being treated with respect after being quickly seperated from the obviously male contingent.

'Mental perversion' is still cited as the reason on the sign off slip.

This is not the cause of problems when ladyboys apply for jobs or have transactions at banks, etc. The single biggest problem is that their physical appearance often does not correspond much to their photo IDs.

[alan1chef]

I think other countries should use Thailand as an example of a country attempting to at least take some steps toward eliminating discrimination against the transgender community. If you look at other countries, such as the Philippines, discrimination against transgenders is widespread and that is specifically why you see so many Philippine transgender webcam performers. The reality for them is working in a salon doing make up, working online, or working the street. I have never seen transgenders working for Shoemart, Jollibee or Philippine National Bank and it is not because they lack qualifications. Most I know have at least some college education and are very well qualified for any position.