Discrimination

[alan1chef]

If you want to have a real academic discussion about transgender discrimination then you need to get out of Thailand, because Thailand has the least amount of transgender discrimination in the world. I mean, really...your idea of discrimination is somebody cannot get into some exclusive club.....???

[rxpharm]

alan1chef, it seems you haven't read all the posts - later on there is discussion about some of the serious problems Thai tgs face. Yes there is more acceptance of this in Thailand, but they don't have as many opportunities as they could have - and their legal status is in limbo for certain kinds of cases.

It is not just about acceptance into certain clubs!

[alan1chef]

I did read all the posts...more than once...and I agree that there are outstanding issues beyond club entrance and wearing pants at a university. My point is that Thailand is so much farther down the road toward acceptance than the rest of the world, that mundane topics such as club entrance enter into the discussion. I've seen the videos on youtube of the ladyboys apartments...how quaint. Compare that with living in resettlement housing in the Philippines years after a volcano wiped out your family's house; where the house is one room concrete block with a tin roof and the transgender resident is happy because this one has running water for the kitchen inside the house instead of outside and where she sometimes cannot make enough money to pay the electric bill and lives with the fear of police raids on webcam performers. Her only real job opportunity is hoping to get a job in the middle east.

I am not making light of the remaining problems for transgenders in Thailand. My hope is that the Thai government will take enough steps forward to have a positive influence on other parts of Asia where the issue is far more serious.

[stogie bear]

It seems that the original poster has decided that the 'night club' incident is no longer pertinent to this debate about the ongoing struggles facing the transgendered community in Thailand.

It is not just about acceptance into certain clubs!

That's what most people reading this would have thought from the very beginning. In fact it doesn't matter how many pieces your suit has and how likely you think you are to cause trouble in a privately run organization, one has to respect other peoples rules...

...and it's not alan1chef who has made club entry a significant part of the reasoning in this debate is it?

Once again - the original poster has had his badly thought out argument collapse around him and has decided to exclude parts of the original posts from further debate!

I'm all for a rational and balanced debate on this issue but the people who start these things should respect the punters by at least beng consistant with their arguments and respectful of the people who join in to write an opinion.

It seems that now the incident at the nightclub (which has been referred to in many posts in more than one thread) has been exposed as an almost peripheral aspect of living as a transgendered person in Thailand, we must now abandon it in future comments.

If you want to have a real academic discussion about transgender discrimination then you need to get out of Thailand, because Thailand has the least amount of transgender discrimination in the world.

Exactly...

The very fact that issues facing ladyboys in Thailand are even being talked about so openly and optomistically by ladyboys in Thailand is a step in itself.

Frankly; as a long time resident of Thailand I'm a bit tired of seeing expats and visitors thumping their chests and bleating on about a better tomorrow and what SHOULD be happening, when Thailand is already moving further and faster than just about any other country in the world on this issue.

I'd sooner get Thais to take road safety more seriously.

As I see the road ahead...

First - there must be a common willingness for ladyboys to want to do something for themselves to make changes in the constitution of Thailand and future laws and images perceived by other Thai people.

This won't happen without a few 'leaders' and many followers actually doing something in the form of a 'movement' and this isn't happening on a large enough way. It's one thing to want something to happen - it's quite another to cause it to happen. The 'organization' needs organizing!

There are simply not enough qualified, ambitious and dedicated 'cause fighters' to have a significant impact on government policy. The issues it seems are not worth any real sacrifice.

But they remain and it is true that transgendered people face certain obstacles...

Passport photos is one terrible example of how ladyboys could easily get an advancement. The sex on the passport could be changed but that's probably someways off. But the photo on the passport is an issue that could be fixed.

In some offices the applicant must have the hair tied back (like a boy) before the photo is taken. This presents an unreal view of the way that person looks in real life. This causes problems.

There is also the flip side to this...

Assuming that ladyboys are now classified as 'Miss' on the strength of there own desire, should they be allowed to make merit as men and join the monkhood for Buddhist traditions? Many seem to want to do this to impress their families... so should they have it both ways?

Should then be allowed to benefit from the inheritance, marriage and property laws that currently favour men?

For all you people who want these 'changes' to happen now, you aren't seeing the impact that these new privileges will have in the longer term. niether I suspect are the ladyboys who yearn so badly for them.

I know it's not a good argument to say 'Well - try being a ladyboy in Burma or Pakistan!' but the plain fact is that there's not a country in the world where ladyboys have the same opportunities to blend in with the regular population.

They are far from shunned and ostracized here. Although the popular image of the ladyboy providing comedic relief on the TV is a bit condescending... but that's just my opinion... ladyboys seem to love it and aren't offended by it.

Too many people are trying to think for them and are too keen to march them into doing things that they clearly have no talent and/or desire for.

It takes a level head and a keen sense of restraint to further your cause in the Land of Smiles... hysterical finger pointing and over ambitious political manipulation will not get the job done.

[Stewart]

It seems that the original poster has decided that the 'night club' incident is no longer pertinent to this debate about the ongoing struggles facing the transgendered community in Thailand.

Why don't you take your pathetic, childish personal vendetta against Ziggy somewhere else and concentrate on the issues that you discuss in that last post, which are far more interesting.

[stogie bear]

You may see it as 'childish and pathetic'. I see it as exposing a ludicrous tosser who lies and bullshits his way through post after post with little to no knowledge of what he's posting about.

I'm seriously worried that if his rubbish is left unchallenged then people may actually take it seriously.

I take it that you believe that he has shagged over 3,000 ladyboys AND has an ongoing longterm 'relationship' with an ex-hooker and accompanied her to a recent college enrollment interview with the college registrar.

I take it that you believe that transgenders from India routinely cut off their own genitals.

Sorry - this poster gets the same treatment as any other. After years of tolerating this insane buffoon because of a misguided loyalty I feel unable to continue.

It's not a personal vendetta. Just a matter of determining what is truth and what is not.

[Stewart]

This is the first time I have actually gone back and looked through a thread in detail or defended a poster.

But, Stogie, I think you are being a complete prick about this, and here is why:

- Ziggy€™s first post is about 65 lines. The Qbar is about 7 lines out of 65...hardly an overwhelming bias towards that issue?
- It talks about a range of issues for TS€™s, including bar entry, ID cards, hotel bans, jobs, medical insurance, university policies, etc
- I don€™t see any emotion when I read his first post, just a range of issues being presented with some examples from his life. The only emotion I see in this thread is your name calling.
- Ziggy specifically states in his post that the bar issue is not life threatening, but other issues are, and goes on to discuss them
- He summarises by saying that Thailand is ahead of the game compared to other countries, just that it is not all roses

All I can see is a sensible post exploring some of the issues faced by TS€™s in Thailand. No emotion, no extreme claims, no personal insults

You, on the other hand, take this approach:

- Your first reply (post 6) - Basically calling Ziggy a liar without using that exact word
- Your second post (post 7) - Picking out the Qbar issue, even though it was a small proportion of the article, and it was stated that it was not as important as many other issues. Later on you state that Ziggy was the one to give this issue importance? Huh? It was YOU that focused on it
- Your third post (post 8) - finally some sensible comments on the issues
- Post 34 €“ more personal insults...€miserable and bitter loudmouth....€
- Post 49 - €˜peppered with emotional rhetoric€™....where?
- Post 49 - €˜post beyond challenging€™?...where has Ziggy EVER said that?
- Post 64 - €˜the original poster says nightclub incident is not important€™....€™It is not just about acceptance into certain clubs€™......he said that in his first post. Again, YOU were the one that made a separate post on that issue....so you are right in your reply to Alan1chef...it was not him, it was you who prioritised this issue

Eventually, when you get round to taking your anti-Ziggy glasses off, you make some good comments. RxPharm seems able to make comments without the personal insults €“ is this beyond you?

Somewhere else recently (the thread about spelling and stuff), you said you wanted to keep the quality of posts on the forum high. You are not setting a very good example IMO.

[stogie bear]

Your detailed post is well noted. Thanks for the kick up the backside.

I'll endeavor in future to be more rational and even handed with this poster.

[Stewart]

I'm seriously worried that if his rubbish is left unchallenged then people may actually take it seriously.

It seems that Rxpharm was agreeing pretty broadly with many of the issues discussed by Ziggy.

So, I assume this means you think Rxpharm is a "a ludicrous tosser who lies and bullshits his way through post after post with little to no knowledge of what he's posting about."?

Or is he a good sensible guy that is also a moderator on this forum, and this is just more anti-Ziggy bias again?

I thought this was supposed to be the academia forum, a place where slightly more serious issues were discussed? If you want to start a "Ziggy is a tosser" or "Stewart is a wanker" forum, fine go for it.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(Stewart @ Dec. 16 2007,14:57) - Ziggy€™s first post is about 65 lines. The Qbar is about 7 lines out of 65...hardly an overwhelming bias towards that issue?

Oh please the Q Bar hissy fit preceeded this post -- that is not his first post about Q Bar.

I agree that the post you cite reeks of B.S. Further, the bit about asking someone not to make personal attacks seems a bit selective, especially since Ziggy is in no way innocent of making personal attacks or calling names.

[Stewart]

(Fred_Nguyen @ Dec. 16 2007,15:09)

(Stewart @ Dec. 16 2007,14:57) - Ziggy€™s first post is about 65 lines. The Qbar is about 7 lines out of 65...hardly an overwhelming bias towards that issue?

Oh please the Q Bar hissy fit preceeded this post -- that is not his first post about Q Bar.

I agree that the post you cite reeks of B.S. Further, the bit about asking someone not to make personal attacks seems a bit selective, especially since Ziggy is in no way innocent of making personal attacks or calling names.

Personal attacks are where this forum takes a nosedive IMO, and just diverts from the otherwise good standard of posts and discussion.

As I said, if someone wants to start a 'Ziggy is a tosser' forum, fair enough. I bet my 'Stewart is a wanker' forum gets more votes!!

[thaibound]

(Stewart @ Dec. 16 2007,01:48) As I said, if someone wants to start a 'Ziggy is a tosser' forum, fair enough. I bet my 'Stewart is a wanker' forum gets more votes!!

probably a toss-up there. though neither would have a shot against 'stogie is even grumpier in the uk'.

[69billy]

(thaibound @ Dec. 16 2007,19:43)

(Stewart @ Dec. 16 2007,01:48) As I said, if someone wants to start a 'Ziggy is a tosser' forum, fair enough. I bet my 'Stewart is a wanker' forum gets more votes!!

probably a toss-up there.  though neither would have a shot against 'stogie is even grumpier in the uk'.

WTF..
You think he can be a more grumpier then what he is already?!!

[alan1chef]

Please understand that I am in no way making light of the issues that still exist in Thailand. The point I made about getting out of Thailand to really get an accurate gauge of transgender discrimination can be seen in a new thread started by Post-op Lover. A recent decision by the Philippine Supreme Court denied a name change for a PI ladyboy. Read the reasoning behind the decision and you will see my point.

[Stewart]

(alan1chef @ Dec. 18 2007,06:10) Please understand that I am in no way making light of the issues that still exist in Thailand. The point I made about getting out of Thailand to really get an accurate gauge of transgender discrimination can be seen in a new thread started by Post-op Lover. A recent decision by the Philippine Supreme Court denied a name change for a PI ladyboy.  Read the reasoning behind the decision and you will see my point.

I agree. I am in the Pi now, and walking through the mall with a ts in tow is FAR more 'visible' than in Thailand......people really do stare far, far more. I can only applaud the ts's here for having the guts to be who they want to be