Discrimination

[stogie bear]

Spot on.

[moe666]

If you are different guess what you will be discriminated against some where, some place, some time.

It is just natural for humans to reject in some way those things different.

[rxpharm]

Yes, there is a natural tendency for people to discriminate - but the post is about situations where it is taken too far in Thailand.

Do you know until 1-2 years ago lbs who have to report for compulsory military service at the age of 18 had "mentally ill" stamped on their record as the reason for their exemption? This makes employment for any high level job extremely difficult. It has been changed now, but the military will not go to past records to adjust them.

Do you know that Bangkok bank did not allow lbs to wear female clothes, even if they were post-op and beautiful?

Do you know that if a lb is raped the attacker will not be charged with rape as the lb has no legal protection against it?

Do you know that an lb cannot legally marry a man?

Lbs have tried to get these problems and more changed over the past years with little sucess. Now they are becoming more organized and vocal and some progress is being made.

Ziggy is not suggesting changes be implemented by "the barrel of a gun". Countries such as Russia, China, the US and countless others know that doesn't work.

Yes, Thailand is not our country, but that does not mean we should take the "NIMBY" not in my back yard attitude. We can support groups such as Transgender Women in Thailand, encourage our lb friends to learn more about what they can do to change things.

In my previous post, I mentioned that equality will only occur when Thai transgenders are elected to government and hold positions of importance in business. This will take some time - but may be possible. The first steps involve removal of these barriers, which is what Ziggy suggests.

This forum is probably not the ideal place to discuss this, after all, most here want to shag lbs, and don't give a hoot what happens to them after that. However, if just one person here begins to understand some of the problems they face, it is a start.

[stogie bear]

There is no shortage of people who 'understand' the difficulties faced by transgendered, least of all the transgendered communities themselves.

Unfortunately for Ziggy he seems to think he can tackle Asian culture with a miserable Western 'attitude.'

He can't and Thailand will change as and when it suits Thai people and not because some miserable and bitter loud mouth 'in a three piece suit' writes a pessimistic blog about night club policy!

The air of optimism in Thailand is high and changes are happening unusually fast.

Instead of bitching about night club doormen from his anonymous back seat why doesn't this spokesman for justice reveal himself to the world and actually fight the good fight from the front?

He wouldn't dare. He'd lose everything including his so called girlfriend, job and his family. But the cause isn't worth any actual sacrifice for him is it!

Sorry - I don't think that causes can be won through bullshit and anonymous whingeing.

The true difference makers are the men and women who LIVE with transgendered people in harmonious one on one relationships.

They are the employers and the NGOs who create opportunities and provide jobs.

They are the brave families who dare raise transgendered people at an early age so that their sexual identity isn't so much a source of insecurity and pain.

These are the people who raise the level of awareness and set forward the trends of Thailand's tomorrow.

[seamus]

(Fred_Nguyen @ Dec. 08 2007,15:35)

(tommy1983 @ Dec. 08 2007,21:53) I have been discriminated against for been catholic when in belfast a few times, but I dont care, cause I do the same with protestants when in the south of ireland.

This is why I hate Ireland... so many religious idiots still caught up in ancient stupidities...

You hate Ireland, just because a few people are still hung up on old shite.Both My parents are from southern Ireland, one Catholic,the other Proddy,but both IRISH & both proud to be.Dont hate us as a nation,hate the bigots,dont hate the country,ya fecking Langer !

[stogie bear]

I love the Tay To potato crisps... They are only 15p compared to Golden Wonder which are about 37p.

Thanks Ireland!

[mardhi]

(stogie bear @ Dec. 11 2007,12:19) There is no shortage of people who 'understand' the difficulties faced by transgendered, least of all the transgendered communities themselves.

Unfortunately for Ziggy he seems to think he can tackle Asian culture with a miserable Western 'attitude.'

He can't and Thailand will change as and when it suits Thai people and not because some miserable and bitter loud mouth 'in a three piece suit' writes a pessimistic blog about night club policy!

The air of optimism in Thailand is high and changes are happening unusually fast.

Instead of bitching about night club doormen from his anonymous back seat why doesn't this spokesman for justice reveal himself to the world and actually fight the good fight from the front?

He wouldn't dare. He'd lose everything including his so called girlfriend, job and his family. But the cause isn't worth any actual sacrifice for him is it!

Sorry - I don't think that causes can be won through bullshit and anonymous whingeing.

The true difference makers are the men and women who LIVE with transgendered people in harmonious one on one relationships.

They are the employers and the NGOs who create opportunities and provide jobs.

They are the brave families who dare raise transgendered people at an early age so that their sexual identity isn't so much a source of insecurity and pain.

These are the people who raise the level of awareness and set forward the trends of Thailand's tomorrow.

As an aside - I still find it funny that NGO's funded by US Aid (and yes thats Kui's lot), have to announce they are totally against prostitution and all it stands for. great stance and so what are charged with doing? Going into bars and telling hookers about safe sex. You have to love the irony.

But of course the world is flat and all the LB's are really women born into the wrong body. By the way I have no problem with the message its just I find it somewhat funny about how things get received. Every Thai knows a LB is a re-incarnated person from a previous life who has done something bad - hence they end up in some middle ground. The AVERAGE Thai has no issue with this - the issue tends to be with Farang. look no further than Q Bar and CM2 both managed by Farang managers - now show me a Thai venue that has such a polciy of total non admission. Sometimes we need to look at ourselves before we look at our fellow countrymen.

Cheers
Mardhi

[stogie bear]

I still find it funny that NGO's funded by US Aid (and yes thats Kui's lot), have to announce they are totally against prostitution and all it stands for. great stance and so what are charged with doing? Going into bars and telling hookers about safe sex. You have to love the irony.

I don't see the irony.

The same NGO that Kui worked for also has drop in centers for drug users, but I'm sure they are probably against drug use on a corporate level!

There are inconsistancies (moral and otherwise) from the NGOs but they do more good than bad. The PSI organization is more against the abuse and exploitation of women and children than they are against prostitution.

The NGO isn't there to talk bargirls ouit of what they do for a living, but rather to educate them on safe sex and alternative lifestyles should they be interested in hearing about them.

[sid the sexist]

I was even rejected a room at the White House Hotel in Pattaya once due to a policy of not allowing two men to sleep in the same room.

You're confusing prejudice with policy.

There are some people who like to go out who do NOT like alternative lifestyles forced down their throat.

Thailand is a deeply intransigent and conservative country. You should try to understand and have sympathy for the majority of Thais and not just labor the 'rights of man' as it applies to a few private establishments.

[ziggystardust]

Rx did a nice job in capturing some other items. The method of approaching this, be it a western one or Thai one is a good topic. For those who missed a few repeated comments, the Q-Bar item is a distraction. Forget it. The bigger fish to fry are much larger, and there is no presumption of changing the world here (like US laws on the boy scouts and golf clubs), it is just to provide LBs with the same rights we have (or don't).

[stogie bear]

it is just to provide LBs with the same rights we have (or don't).

For instance?

Thai LBs have more rights in Thailand than I do. I can't vote, become naturalized or even get a job without a load of headaches.Who is (are) this 'we'?

Legislation is moving forward (but we ain't holding our breath, right folks!), employers and government agencies are beginning to see the bigger picture, ladyboys themselves are upbeat about their futures and to be honest... they don't do so bad do they?

What are you campaigning to actually change and what are these 'rights' that they need to lead richer fuller lives?

Individual prejudices aren't really a national threat. Calling out individuals for not towing the PC line won't change much and possibly even set the dignity of ladyboys back a notch or two.

Personally, I would like to see the pantomime TV ladyboys off the air. They aren't funny and they perpetuate a condescending view of ladyboys. THAT would be a significant step forward... but then most ladyboys aren't that reactionary and seem to find them funny, so it's not really something that I'll get much support for.

Thailand seems to be headed in the right direction as many countries are actually taking steps backwards.

[mardhi]

(Sid the sexist @ Dec. 12 2007,16:54)

I was even rejected a room at the White House Hotel in Pattaya once due to a policy of not allowing two men to sleep in the same room.

You're confusing prejudice with policy.

There are some people who like to go out who do NOT like alternative lifestyles forced down their throat.

Thailand is a deeply intransigent and conservative country. You should try to understand and have sympathy for the majority of Thais and not just labor the 'rights of man' as it applies to a few private establishments.

Whitehouse hotel is farang owned and operated. Just another example of farangs being more of the cause of the problems that have been highlighted so far. My experience is that the average Thai is sympathetic to the LB and would rarely cause a loss of face like the ones being described here. Police accepted of course - however I know for a fact that Jay is treated very politely by every police guy she meets. Probably helps that she is donating to the pension fund, but thats another issue. The question of employment is tougher - I fully accept that. Otherwise, I dont often come across many issues.

Cheers
Mardhi

[mardhi]

(stogie bear @ Dec. 12 2007,16:27)

I still find it funny that NGO's funded by US Aid (and yes thats Kui's lot), have to announce they are totally against prostitution and all it stands for.   great stance and so what are charged with doing?  Going into bars and telling hookers about safe sex.    You have to love the irony.

I don't see the irony.

The same NGO that Kui worked for also has drop in centers for drug users, but I'm sure they are probably against drug use on a corporate level!

There are inconsistancies (moral and otherwise) from the NGOs but they do more good than bad. The PSI organization is more against the abuse and exploitation of women and children than they are against prostitution.

The NGO isn't there to talk bargirls ouit of what they do for a living, but rather to educate them on safe sex and alternative lifestyles should they be interested in hearing about them.

No issue with the sentiment - and by the sounds of things - the NGO concerned is doing what it feels is the best thing - however as I said, the irony is that US policy must have the NGO declare prostitution almost as a persona non grata - reality is the issue is so inter-woven that you cant seperate the two - my issue is more with the US govt policy and 'blinkered' view than how its adopted on the street so to speak. I am sure they are doing great things with anti drug programs and trying to keep underage kids out of the scene completely - however to try and improve things, it really does help if you understand and accept that the situation exists in the first place. Unfortunately from the paper I read about it a few years ago - US policy has no such insight.

Cheers
Mardhi

[stogie bear]

I've met Ziggy's friend May on more than one occasion and I'll wager that she doesn't have anything to worry about as far as her future is concerned. A smarter, more serene and sensible person you cannot find anywhere.

I just can't imagine this person getting 'shocked' or even upset at night club/hotel policies or even college interview sessions.

Still - maybe she's changed and become more westernized hanging out with Ziggy!

Nah... I can't see it.

[rxpharm]

are you getting a more severe case of grumpiness in the UK? Ziggy's recent posts have focussed more on the topic at hand, while it seems like you are trying to bait him. Almost a deja vu episode with Ozzie months ago.

Back to the topic of hand, a) you don't have rights in Thailand because the Thai government has in its serene wisdom decided they don't want to be flooded with expats who will vote to change their country. There are many countries like this - all the Arab Persian Gulf countries have the same policies - no rights for expats working in their country even if they have been living there for 40 years.

Does that make it right? As you say it's none of our business, its their own decision to do what they want.

This kind of attitude may be fine for day to day living - I don't care about anything except my own life - don't disturb my comfort zone - you can do what you want to anyone else.

What it doesn't do is foster change for the better. You say Thai society is changing, and yes it is albeit slowly. You say pending legislation for improvement is on the table (fully expecting it to take decades or possibly a lifetime to enact).

Do you care if a lb has no chance at a higher level job because the military won't modify her "mental illness" exemption record - even though they have decided to stop doing this for lbs today?

Do you care that lbs don't have the legal right to marry someone if she and her partner choose to do so?

Do you care if a lb is raped her attacker would not be charged with that crime, because she doesn't have the status to give her that protection under the law?

Do you care if a lb is traveling overseas and she is detained because some overzealous immigration officials says she must be a threat to national security because her passport gender doesn't match her appearance?

Is there something we can do to help promote change, and not at the point of a gun as someone has suggested?

Well, you mentioned NGOs and they do good work to help some lbs - but they don't usually foster change on a governmental level. Supporting them with a donation would be a useful thing to think about.

So you say not many lbs are reactionary, and that is true, since they are more concerned about day to day living. However there are some who are becoming reactionary and they are the ones who can promote the changes needed.

It's kind of like the black movement in the US - while lbs are not facing the extreme limitations the blacks had, they do have obstacles to overcome. It took generations for that change to take place, and I hope it won't be so long before we see lbs elected to the Thai government, being heads of major companies, and maybe, just maybe an lb prime minister.

So you and I disagree on this subject, sure, and certainly discussion on this forum won't change things in Thailand. On my next visit to the LOS I am going to see how I can give some support to the Transgender Women of Thailand group.