Discrimination

[seamus]

Dont ever stop writing on this forum Ziggy,you are an old war horse & we new to the scene learn so much from you's guys.Wether We all agree or not shouldnt matter,what matters is We all keep these topics & debates coming,as it is both interesting & informative.
I love this site,some post piss Me off, others i find interesting & the photo trips make Me jealous.I feel like I know some of you guys, yet We have & may never meet,so dont anyone leave,We may not be one happy family,but We all belong !

Seamus

[stogie bear]

and not commenting on the post itself.

Good grief. You're such a drama queen. On one hand you want all posters to be sceptical of the facts and fiction written on this and other forums, but then you act like a petulant child when someone questions yours!!!

Grow up.

[tommy1983]

Discrimination is everywhere and always will be.

I have discriminated against people alot, but I dont do it on purpose.

For example, If I was dealing with suppliers or sales reps, if one was black, eastern european or whatever, and the other was irish, I deal with the irish one first.

I have a chat with the irish one, have a bit of a laugh, and leave the other one waiting, and then when dealing with them, I'd just do my job, sign whatever paperwork they have, and that would be it.

I get the same treatment from them when am in there position.

I have been discriminated against for been catholic when in belfast a few times, but I dont care, cause I do the same with protestants when in the south of ireland.

hell my sister even left a job in the north because all the other staff kept calling her "the mexican". She didn't give out about it, she just left, and set up her own business.

I even asked a guy to leave my office building and told him to get changed because he was wearing a Glasgow rangers jersey, call me a biggot for discriminating against him, I dont care, cause I would expect the same treament.

Discrimination is everywhere, it is in every country, every culture, and comes in all shapes and sizes.

You cant change it, but you can try. But you will be wasting your time.

You just got to except it and roll with it.

[kahuna]

(ziggystardust @ Dec. 08 2007,12:22) Yes, your absolutely right Kahuna, all LB are really men in lady's clothing.

Ziggy please don't be offended...I'm simply stating my view...And I didn't state that I believe ALL the girls are "fakes"...just most of those that I have been with...My point is simply, how in the hell can you or I ever know how they fit into the Thai social system...

We know what the girls tell us...but what does that truly mean...What does "everyman" think?

I can tell you this, while spending several weeks with my friend in Isaan...every time she and I would have a little spat, her aunt, ever the peace maker, would come to me to remind me, "Remember she is a boy."

I can't get into her aunt's head, but that statement tells me just a little bit about what might be in there...

How they are viewed by the general Thai population and how and why they are discriminated against is way too complex for my meager brain to comprehend...

And that dosen't make discrimination against Thai ladyboys in Thailand right or wrong...The right and wrong part is only in our heads...

[Fred_Nguyen]

(tommy1983 @ Dec. 08 2007,21:53) I have been discriminated against for been catholic when in belfast a few times, but I dont care, cause I do the same with protestants when in the south of ireland.

This is why I hate Ireland... so many religious idiots still caught up in ancient stupidities...

[doug]

Having lived with ladyboys (they would prefer the word: trannies) in the States, I'd have to say that they have it much worse off over there.

The occassional ridicule and discrimination that a normal, NON-BAR ladyboy faces in Thailand pales in comparison to the very real threat of violence that many transgenders face in the States.

I knew of several girls who were beaten and even murdered by suitors who flew into a white rage after a "crying game" moment.

Not to say that Thai transgenders don't have it tough sometimes, just that they should count their blessings and continue to strive towards REAL acceptance in society (and not just acceptance as the butt of jokes).

I've always been curious how ladyboys view the stream of "katoey humor" that comes out of the TV and movies here. Some of it is pretty mean-spirited, and I'm curious how they feel when that stuff is on the tube. Or how do they feel when they sit through a movie like that?

I suppose it would be akin to being an obese person sitting in the audience at a comedy show while the comedian on stage cracks really nasty fat jokes and everyone else in the audience is in stitches. Do you laugh? Cry? Get angry?

[bigmick22]

(doug @ Dec. 08 2007,15:35) I've always been curious how ladyboys view the stream of "katoey humor" that comes out of the TV and movies here.  Some of it is pretty mean-spirited, and I'm curious how they feel when that stuff is on the tube.  Or how do they feel when they sit through a movie like that?

I've been at a number of movies in LOS  where there were trailers for Thai movies that had exactly this kind of humour -  nasty jokes at expense of Ladyboys. In all cases, the LB I was with found it hilarious and laughed as hard as anyone else in the cinema. I found it very, very strange  

[bigmick22]

(Fred_Nguyen @ Dec. 08 2007,15:35)

(tommy1983 @ Dec. 08 2007,21:53) I have been discriminated against for been catholic when in belfast a few times, but I dont care, cause I do the same with protestants when in the south of ireland.

This is why I hate Ireland... so many religious idiots still caught up in ancient stupidities...

strange - we all love you

[stogie bear]

(bigmick22 @ Dec. 08 2007,23:25)

(doug @ Dec. 08 2007,15:35) I've always been curious how ladyboys view the stream of "katoey humor" that comes out of the TV and movies here. Some of it is pretty mean-spirited, and I'm curious how they feel when that stuff is on the tube. Or how do they feel when they sit through a movie like that?

I've been at a number of movies in LOS where there were trailers for Thai movies that had exactly this kind of humour - nasty jokes at expense of Ladyboys. In all cases, the LB I was with found it hilarious and laughed as hard as anyone else in the cinema. I found it very, very strange

That's been my experience too, even though I haven't been to Phuket!

[ziggystardust]

Thank-you again Stogie for the second insult. I anxiously await for the third. I also look forward to you actually commenting on the post vs the poster.

Kahuna, I can only say you surprise me, as 99% of all your posts are sound, but not this one in my opinion. However, it really wasn't the point of the post, so let's not prolong that debate here. It's a completely separate topic if you want to launch it (I won't).

I do appreciate the comment and agree that Thailand is a far better place for transgenders than anywhere in the world, as clearly stated at the end of my article. However, as also stated, it is far from perfect. As a male, you think these things are noise, immaterial, trivial. As a LB, you do not. You cannot imagine the feeling a LB has of being rejected entrance to some establishment, no matter how trivial we might think that to be. It is very much akin to the feeling a black person might have felt being rejected from some white establishment is my view. It cannot and never is brushed off. The feeling is remembered and lingers, and the very clear message it implies, namely, that 'you are below others' is well understood.

The concept that private establishments should be able to do what they want is ridiculous. Virtually all of our lives are spent in private establishments, or being served by private establishments, including bars, restaurants, hospitals, insurance companies, universities, landlords, banks, employers, etc, etc. If all could act like Q-Bar, it would be tantamount to gross public social injustice. There are some basic inalieable rights, of which non-discriminatory treatment is one, captured in most Human Rights manifestos, including the European one as an example. Some people think it is ok, because it is ladyboys. Who cares? Apply it to black people, or jews, or fat people, and it would be an outrage. That is really the main, main point. As Clinton said, "I did it for the worst possible reason. Because I could." These places and people do it for the worst possible reason, because they can.

[stogie bear]

Should a ladyboy bargirl turn down a customer based solely on his color? They do, so it should work both ways, right?

[Fred_Nguyen]

(ziggystardust @ Dec. 09 2007,01:28) The concept that private establishments should be able to do what they want is ridiculous.

Ziggy,

If everybody just did what you want, the world would be a happier, more peaceful place!

But if you deny a private establishment the right to exclude those whom the owners desire, then, by your insane reasoning:

Guess Bar should not have the option to deny entry to fat butch lesbians who want to overtake the place and make-out there.

The Grand Palace should not refuse entry to someone wearing a "Bhumibol is an ----" t-shirt.

A synagogue should not refuse entry to skinheads who like to wear brownshirts and boots.

An exclusive restaurant should not be able to deny service to someone without shirt or shoes. After all, lack of clothing may be just a sign of poverty.

Last, if a prostitute brings a john to her place, and he indicates that he has HIV, should she have the right to decline service? After all, it is against the law in most places, as well as the European Human Rights manifesto and, for chrissakes, the spirit of the city of San Francisco, to discriminate against someone with HIV.

[divertwo]

...well the highest court in the USA up held Augusta National's (home of Masters golf tournament) right to not permit female members. The women tried a demonstration which didn't work......so they have moved on to fight other battles. Didn't the Boy Scouts of America also win their right to exclude gay members? Maybe the fact that these are "clubs" gives them the right to decide their membership. Turn the bars into "clubs" and they can do what they want. I know a few after hours places that do that in order to sell alcohol all night. We sure have a lot of "arm chair" civil rights attorneys on this forum.

[ziggystardust]

I think there is too much focus on the Q-Bar item and non-essential life items.

The current status quo in Thailand in some cases, literally impacts essential elements of life; education, health insurance, the ability to walk the street without police harassment, employment.

It is correct you cannot put laws around everything in life, and should not. And there will always workarounds, like 'clubs'. But those items surrounding necessities of a life, you should have laws, and most countries do.

So, while I appreciate your examples, there is large difference between non-essential and essential, and nothing I said is anything not already done for blacks in the US. In fact, everything transgression I noted is restricted in many countries in the world in variants of Human Rights bills, including the US, Canada, and the EU (where transgender rights are explicitly mentioned). Even my own company explicitly prevents discrimination against transgenders.

So insane as it is Fred, a large number of countries have laws preventing exactly what I noted. I am only suggesting those same guidelines be brought to Thailand, nothing more, nothing less. That is not so insane.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(ziggystardust @ Dec. 10 2007,09:22) So insane as it is Fred, a large number of countries have laws preventing exactly what I noted. I am only suggesting those same guidelines be brought to Thailand, nothing more, nothing less. That is not so insane.

In your heart you may be a moral bolshevist, but as a foreign guest in a democratic country, until you can enforce your dictat and morality at the barrel of a gun, you should be back in Canada on the street, shouting and hollering with a cardboard sign and selling pencils from a cup.

When you become King, perhaps then the Thai people will care what you think.