Israel

[Ivor Biggun]

I agree

[whore]

I think its more a case of one or two mods being more anti muslim than pro Israel. I dont blame them for feeling strongly about these issues, I too would feel strongly about it if my home country was rapidly becoming a muslim country.

[Road Runner]

(whore @ Jul. 25 2010,18:44) I think its more a case of one or two mods being more anti muslim than pro Israel.

I have serious doubts about the lot of them in that area of the world whatever cloth they claim.
I hold the view that it's the part of the world most likely to start world war 3.  
Though sometimes India and Pakistan have a good try.    


You can call me anti-Islam, not anti-Muslim.

I've studied and worked with lots of decent, honest hard working Muslims and apart for the odd one they have all been great people.

But do a little study and you will find out that it's the absolute duty of every good Muslim to convert you to Islam, forcibly if necessary  -
or as an alternative if you are 'Children of the Book' then you can be allowed to live in slavery.   The ones that don't do this are bad Muslims.

Why am I anti-Islam?   Because I have no desire to be forcibly converted to a form of hocus-pocus cobbled together by a 7th century,  
misogynist, pederast, meglomaniac, facist.  Is that unreasonable?


Sun worship I understand  -  everything that comes after it is pure invention.  

RR.

[whore]

Good post.

[Guest]

I am anti-Islam myself,anti all Big Religion actually.And I reserve a special hatred for all fundamentalists ,whatever denomination.But it appears that anyone who has a go at Israel on this forum is deemed to be pro-Islamist.
Can some people not differentiate between support for a genuine humanitarian cause ie The Palestinians,and a support for Muslim fundamentalists.
However Just the Palestinian cause is,the anti Islam brigade will ignore it because of their blind hatred for Islam and muslims.

[Torurot]

(travis bickle @ Jul. 26 2010,00:24) .It does seem at times that all(?) the moderators hold the same pro-israeli line.Im sure it is not the official TLF line,it just appears that you all  sing from the same hymnsheet.

I must be invisible.  Clearly NOT ALL Moderators support the egregious acts of Israel, or even America.  Hint: Many does not equal.  all.  Many moderators have no interest in political etc threads. Just for the sake of 'balance'   http://evilbible.com http://englishatheist.org/evil/eviltorah.shtml  http://www.torahtruth.org/important-quotes/  

[Tomcat]

(travis bickle @ Jul. 26 2010,00:24) .It does seem at times that all(?) the moderators hold the same pro-israeli line.

depends what you mean by Pro Israel.

Most elected Govts in the Western World hold a pro Israeli line dont they so even if all the mods hold this view , which they clearly dont, it would not be surprising.

No Jew has ever tried to blow me up on a train or elsewhere thats for sure.
I live amongst Muslims and i can tell you that there is so much hatred against the Western ways it is unbelievable. You can blame society et etc but i am not interested in all that bullshit...

[DexterH]

Israel was conceived in the 19th century in the mood of liberal nationalism that was common at the time, which perceived 'national liberation' as a credible alternative to imperial oppression.  Nationalism has since become a mono-cultural project that manifestly doesn't work (eg, North Korea).

It is a complex set of problems:

a 'Jewish state for the Jewish people' which never had the universal endorsement of world Jewry -an impossible task for a disapora with no unified representatives.

A commitment to personal security which has never and cannot be met because Israeli society is divided by its own cultural and religious differences as well as the perceived threat from the Arabs.  Moreover, it is hard to keep a country secure if regular invasions of neighburing states make genuine peace a fantasy and if, as happened in 1967, the state over-runs territory containing a million hostile people and behaves like a military dictatorship to 'keep order'.

The founding ideology of Zionism has collapsed -the collective farms (Kibbutzim) have become commercial enterprises, the healthy young Jews from all over the world who used to farm artichokes and oranges have been replaced by wage slaves from Thailand and China.   Israel it seems can only be secured by making it more Jewish, insisting that Jews swear allegiance to a 'Jewish state' before getting citizenship (currently proposed) yet the state has failed to define what a Jew is and is mired in new legislation attemptinig to define how someone becomes a Jew by conversion (where one parent was not Jewish as was common with the Russian emigrants).

But if Israel becomes so 'completely Jewish' where do the Muslims, the Christians, the Samaritans, and of course, the atheists, go?  Its multi-culturalism in reverse, an attempt to make Israel look more like North Korea than California; and it wont work.

One half of Israel lives on the beach, it thinks a good time is geting laid, smoking a joint, reading Kafka, dancin to Dana, and getting a law degree.  The other half whose entire childhood is spent reading religious texts, doesn't work, doesn't intend to work (but gets welfare from the state) and thinks the other half of Israel is composed of dissolute atheists, drug addicts and queers.

Israel-compelling, fascinating, often hilarious; bigoted, murderous, a failure.  Pass me an onion someone, and bring this topic to a close.  Its going nowhere.

[whore]

Great post

[Guest]

Yes a great post.But the half of the population who dont work,study scripture all day,get welfare payments to do so etc-they hold the balance of power,and incidentally are also the half that control the BIG money.Also the half who would happily exterminate the arabs ,who believe parts of Syria and Jordan should also be "their" land,and the half whose members, almost all,are not semitic at all,having their origins in Eastern Europe,as proved by DNA sampling.
A "homeland" for this half of IsraelsZionist jewry would be better sited in Western Khazakstan ,from where they originated .

[Tomcat]

I think Dexter forgot to include Scientific research as one of the major Industries of Israel. If you read any quarterly science journal at least least quarter of all notable research comes from  Isreal , and this is growing at a pace.

They believe its their land, perhaps it is their land.  How do you think the USA or Australia or Brazil got started eh!..it wasnt pretty for the locals at the time, thats for sure

The reality is , when one boils it down, brute force is all that matters in the world.

[whore]

How would you like it if I came round to your house, kicked the door in, hit you a few times with a baseball bat, locked you into your own bathroom and then moved into your house calling it my own, with you locked in the bathroom for ever and ever, only getting abit of water and a sandwich each day.

[Guest]

(Tomcat @ Jul. 27 2010,18:05) They believe its their land, perhaps it is their land.

The reality is , when one boils it down, brute force is all that matters in the world.

Pray tell-how is it their land? I'd love to hear a reasoned argument that doesnt involve the use of force.

You may be correct Tomcat-might is right.
It would be much more honest , if everybody just said that from the start
Israel can subjugate the Palestinians because they have the (American)might.

BTW-very good analogy WHORE.

[DexterH]

Tomcat that is a fair point on science and technology, its something Israel is excelling at, and not just new and ever more lethal weapons systems -indeed it is proving such a money-earner that in more areas than people realise Israel dos not need as much US cash as it gets.

It is a great sadness that education has become such a battleground where the religious nutters have as much hostility to it as the Taliban, it is still the case that if you need heart surgery in the Middle East the best cardiac surgeons will either be Israeli or Palestinian, but I don't know that Palestinians under occupation have been able to maintain their high standards of education -indeed the support for Hamas and Islamic Jihad are symptomatic of whay happens when critical thinking is considered a luxury.

And yes the role played by the minority religious parties has been detrimental to practical options for peace; the claim on the 'land of Israel' is without meaning in purely historical terms but that doesn't matter to them.

Israel has at some point to decide if it wants to be a Mediterranean/American country with a liberal attitude to social relations, or if it wants to be a 'Jewish state' in every sense of the word. In the medium term it might work, but the environmental madness of commercial agriculture and those hideous and relentlessly expanding housing estates is making the place uninhabitable anyway -the water deficit in the region is approaching critical levels which is why rabbiting on about the Caliphate or the Sabbath is utterly pointless, but thats religious politics. Armageddon after all is a field between northern Israel and the Lebanese border...

[Torurot]

Much of Israels water is taken from Palestinian territory. Israel wants ALL the land down to and including the river Jordan.