Haiti - Its All So Sad...

[BlueBallz]

The situation there is beyond horrible and wouldnt wish any of that on my worst enemy. Of course we shold do what we can to help thsoe poor, unfortunates to improve their lot in life.

Having said that, what can be done?? Who the hell knows. The place is such a basket case. Since 1993 the US ALONE has poured BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars into the country. I doubt there have been ANY tangible results that improved the lives of ordinary people. What has happened to all the money/resources?? Its an abject disgrace all around.

In no way do I wish to discourage people who have donated to the cause. I ahve done so already. But there has to be some sort of accountability. In now way, shape, or form do I agree with that rubberhole Pat Robertson that they deserved it coz they amde a pact with the devil to kick out the French. What the fuck??

But a big reason why the place is such a misery is because of a small group of Haitians themselves who ahve looted whatever aid has come into the country. I am certain that there will be some who would blame America in some way. But this place has little, no natural resources yet we have shelled out BILLIONS trying to make it a better place. But without tangible success.

Perhaps this is not the proper time to have this conversation while there are people still trapped in rubble alive. Nevertheless, its a topic that MUST be brught up and discussed......

[Bumpa STIKKA]

I agree with you... the US has gone waaaay past the call of duty for that country in so many ways.

Nice to see the money grabbing charities jump all over this situation isn't it? Especially the ones that already have millions invested in banks, etc.

[PigDogg]

Not PC, especially given the timing, but an interesting read by a right leaning Times columnist.

January 15, 2010
Op-Ed Columnist
The Underlying Tragedy
By DAVID BROOKS

On Oct. 17, 1989, a major earthquake with a magnitude of 7.0 struck the Bay Area in Northern California. Sixty-three people were killed. This week, a major earthquake, also measuring a magnitude of 7.0, struck near Port-au-Prince, Haiti. The Red Cross estimates that between 45,000 and 50,000 people have died.

This is not a natural disaster story. This is a poverty story. It€™s a story about poorly constructed buildings, bad infrastructure and terrible public services. On Thursday, President Obama told the people of Haiti: €œYou will not be forsaken; you will not be forgotten.€ If he is going to remain faithful to that vow then he is going to have to use this tragedy as an occasion to rethink our approach to global poverty. He€™s going to have to acknowledge a few difficult truths.

The first of those truths is that we don€™t know how to use aid to reduce poverty. Over the past few decades, the world has spent trillions of dollars to generate growth in the developing world. The countries that have not received much aid, like China, have seen tremendous growth and tremendous poverty reductions. The countries that have received aid, like Haiti, have not.

In the recent anthology €œWhat Works in Development?,€ a group of economists try to sort out what we€™ve learned. The picture is grim. There are no policy levers that consistently correlate to increased growth. There is nearly zero correlation between how a developing economy does one decade and how it does the next. There is no consistently proven way to reduce corruption. Even improving governing institutions doesn€™t seem to produce the expected results.

The chastened tone of these essays is captured by the economist Abhijit Banerjee: €œIt is not clear to us that the best way to get growth is to do growth policy of any form. Perhaps making growth happen is ultimately beyond our control.€

The second hard truth is that micro-aid is vital but insufficient. Given the failures of macrodevelopment, aid organizations often focus on microprojects. More than 10,000 organizations perform missions of this sort in Haiti. By some estimates, Haiti has more nongovernmental organizations per capita than any other place on earth. They are doing the Lord€™s work, especially these days, but even a blizzard of these efforts does not seem to add up to comprehensive change.

Third, it is time to put the thorny issue of culture at the center of efforts to tackle global poverty. Why is Haiti so poor? Well, it has a history of oppression, slavery and colonialism. But so does Barbados, and Barbados is doing pretty well. Haiti has endured ruthless dictators, corruption and foreign invasions. But so has the Dominican Republic, and the D.R. is in much better shape. Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the same island and the same basic environment, yet the border between the two societies offers one of the starkest contrasts on earth €” with trees and progress on one side, and deforestation and poverty and early death on the other.

As Lawrence E. Harrison explained in his book €œThe Central Liberal Truth,€ Haiti, like most of the world€™s poorest nations, suffers from a complex web of progress-resistant cultural influences. There is the influence of the voodoo religion, which spreads the message that life is capricious and planning futile. There are high levels of social mistrust. Responsibility is often not internalized. Child-rearing practices often involve neglect in the early years and harsh retribution when kids hit 9 or 10.

We€™re all supposed to politely respect each other€™s cultures. But some cultures are more progress-resistant than others, and a horrible tragedy was just exacerbated by one of them.

Fourth, it€™s time to promote locally led paternalism. In this country, we first tried to tackle poverty by throwing money at it, just as we did abroad. Then we tried microcommunity efforts, just as we did abroad. But the programs that really work involve intrusive paternalism.

These programs, like the Harlem Children€™s Zone and the No Excuses schools, are led by people who figure they don€™t understand all the factors that have contributed to poverty, but they don€™t care. They are going to replace parts of the local culture with a highly demanding, highly intensive culture of achievement €” involving everything from new child-rearing practices to stricter schools to better job performance.

It€™s time to take that approach abroad, too. It€™s time to find self-confident local leaders who will create No Excuses countercultures in places like Haiti, surrounding people €” maybe just in a neighborhood or a school €” with middle-class assumptions, an achievement ethos and tough, measurable demands.

The late political scientist Samuel P. Huntington used to acknowledge that cultural change is hard, but cultures do change after major traumas. This earthquake is certainly a trauma. The only question is whether the outside world continues with the same old, same old.

[PigDogg]

Just like Katrina, the looting begins, nothing like a new TV.

[PigDogg]

Of course, this is a horrible tragedy, and the support logistics much more difficult than Katrina.

Desparate people are not going to queue up for food and water and the U.S. army can't use force to restore order. Difficult situation this is.

[smuttleydfs]

This is the reaction ot Haiti from 2 reich wing stalwarts

Pat Robertson:

From NBC's Domenico Montanaro
Evangelical preacher Pat Robertson is at it again. On his Christian Broadcasting Network, he blamed the earthquake in Haiti on the country's "pact to the Devil" for wanting its freedom from French colonial rule.

Imagine if he had said this in October of last year:

You know, Christie, something happened a long time ago in Haiti. And the people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third or whatever, and they got together and swore a pact to the Devil. They said, 'We will serve you if you get us free from the French. True story. And so, the Devil said, Ok, it's a deal. And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another -- desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti on the other is the Dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have, and we need to pray for them, a great turning to God, that out of this tragedy, I'm optimistic something good may come, but right now we're helping the suffering people -- and the suffering is unimaginable

Oxyman Rush

Amidst the desperate relief efforts attempting to get aid into Haiti after Tuesday€™s devastating earthquake are comments like those of Rush Limbaugh, who told a caller on his radio show that people don€™t need to contribute money to Haitian relief.
After President Obama urged Americans to contribute money to earthquake recovery efforts and directed them to the White House website to learn how they can help, Limbaugh suggested that visiting the site will just get someone on Obama€™s campaign e-mail list. (We checked the website's short blog post, which has direct links to the Red Cross and the Center for International Disaster in neat bullet points -- no e-mail forms to be seen.)

"We've already donated to Haiti,'' Limbaugh told the caller on his radio show. "It's called the U.S. income tax." (Read the full transcript at Limbaugh's website.)

However expected such audacious comments might be from the conservative pundit, many readers were insulted by them. Others defended his statements, saying they were taken out of context.


So fuck it lets just nuke the bastards Thats what Sarah would do

[JaiDee]

(BlueBallz @ Jan. 18 2010,00:25)  The place is such a basket case.  Since 1993 the US ALONE has poured BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars into the country.  
I doubt there have been ANY tangible results that improved the lives of ordinary people.  What has happened to all the money/resources??  

Exactly...... of course this tragedy is horrible and is has been covered 24/7 since it happened on the major networks and makes us all feel sad, how could you not??   But, as BB says, we have been dumping money into Haiti for a few generations now and they have NEVER gotten better or any less destitute; it seems it only gets worse and worse and now THIS tragic natural disaster; uugghhhh.

            Africa is a very similar deal.....people like Bono and Bob Geldof and Bill Gates, as well as US and western governmental aid in general, do their best to send literally BILLIONS into that continent every week but it never seems to get better in any substantial way.   Sad to say, but despite hardcore money and food and resources being sent into Haiti and Africa  now and for the past 50 years or more, these 2 places are just giant sinkholes of money-losing efforts where nothing ever improves, and I feel that neither place will substantially get any better in our lifetimes.  

[BlueBallz]

Yes JD I thought about Africa when I was posting this as well. It basically the same damned thing. My downstairs neighbor is a nice Haitian guy with a young son. What can I say to him?? I think he still has family down there :-(.

Smutts I wish you would not have posted what you did. Its OBVIOUS what that dimwit Robertson said was beyond stoopid. Did you hear what the equally stoopid and dangerous dickhead Danny Glover said?? He basically said that because there were no sweeping agreements made by industrialsed nations in Copenhagen (re global warming) this dire situation in Haiti happened. Now even if you believe in MAN MADE "global warming", any 8th grade student (only if you go to private schol that is) knows that earthquake have to do with plate tectonics and subduction zones have have fuck all to do with the weather. Now should we condemn the left because a leftist said something stoopid?? I think not.

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!

[smuttleydfs]

Hell yes I would condem stupid statements from the left....but there are so many more from the reich wing it is unbelievable!!!!

Again I notice you still aren't distancing yourself from Oxyman......guess what he said was agreeable?

[BlueBallz]

Er um-no!! He has a valid point about all the money we have thrown into that country for years now-ESPECIALLY since the start of 1993. We should contribute what we can. But without an effective type of central authority, it will only get worse and more money thrown down the toilet.

I know this is nuts but I thought of it the other day. If everybody wants t help so muc lest not only put your money where your mouth is but how about this. Depopulate that half of the island. Anyone who wants to leave can participate in a UN program. Take the top 50 countries of the world and distribute the Haitian population amongst them. You do it on a voluntary basis and distribute the citizens on a voluntary basis. Not only have the top 50 countries participate but also all the countries in the Carribean. Hold a lottery-some people go to Denmark, some to Brazil, some to teh USA some to Mexico and some to Cuba et al. Make that half of the island a no go zone.

I read this on Breitbart an admitedly conservative site. It state the Obama administration will allow illegal Haitian immigrants to remain in the country without penalty-get this-EVEN ONE IN JAIL/DETENTION!!! This I totally DISAGREE with. Just what we need to reward illegal immigrants.

We are doomed!!

Smutts, do you agree with the administration on tha one?? Do you denounce the looney left aka Danny Glover, Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, Schmuck Schumer wing of the Democratic Party??

Sorry but we are getting off the thread topic here. It sad yes but how much money do we pour down the drain???

[BlueBallz]

Just read the article Mr. Pigg posted by David Brooks. He is SPOT ON!! His comarison between Haiti, The Dom Rep, and Barbados is especially insightful.

[Bumpa STIKKA]

I'm with Limbaugh. The US has already spent billions in public funds on that shit hole.

Raising another few billion from cynical TV advertising won't change the lives of any Haitians one tiny bit.

But it sure will swell the coffers of the 'charities' and their enormous stockpiles of wealth!

If anyone has done any research at all into the financial dealings of the corrupt so called 'charities' then they wouldn't donate a dime.

Save your money.

That shit hole is in trouble today because of shoddy construction regulations and NOT because of the earth quake. Plenty of places (notably the US) have had earth quakes of a similar size with almost no damage.

As for Roberston - well, he's a nutter. Anyone with an IQ of over 20 can see that this guy should be in a funny farm.

[smuttleydfs]

The point behind the ignorance of oxyman's drug induced comments about Haiti is at this point in time they are ill-timed and insenstive which in its own is not at all surprising. But considering that his listeners would be the last you could expect to make contributions anyway I think they are basically immaterial. Factually he is correct, the US has dropped alot of maoney over the years to Haiti...........they also have dropped alot of money and troop support to South Korea, West Germany, numerous countries in Africa, etc etc..........it's what America does!!!! If Oxyman had of waited til he was more sober and made some commentary after the extent of the death toll was determined then it wouldn't be as ignorant.

This is a transcript of a dialouge between Oxyman and a caller on his show.:

There isn€™t a human tragedy too big for the drug-addicted draft-dodging sex tourist to politicize.

RUSH: No, I€™m not evading it at all. If I said it I meant to say it, and I do believe that everything is political to this president. Everything this president sees is a political opportunity, including Haiti, and he will use it to burnish his credentials with minorities in this country and around the world, and to accuse Republicans of having no compassion. [...]

CALLER: [A]re you implying that the Huffington Post as the one and only resource that I [read]? I even watch Fox News once in a while.

RUSH: No, no, no, no, no. I€™m not implying that. €¦ What I€™m illustrating here is that you€™re a blockhead. What I€™m illustrating here is that you€™re a closed-minded bigot who is ill-informed. €¦ And if you had listened to this program for a modicum of time you would know it. But instead you€™re a blockhead. You€™re mind is totally closed. You have tampons in your ears. Nothing is getting through other than the biased crap that you read.

Tampons in your ears?

I mean please tell what sense does it make for this drug addicted deluded pisspoor human speciman to correlate this tragedy to Obama using it for political gain? I mean ya'all are missing the entire point here he is alleging with no basis that contributions through the White House will not necessarily go to the earthquake victims........and to quote Robert Gibbs that is just plain stupid.

Gibbs:

Spokesman Robert Gibbs says there are always people who say "really stupid things" during a crisis. He says it's sad that Limbaugh would use the power of his pulpit to convince people not to assist those in need.

Gee I'm in major wonderment too why Obama can't magically wave his wand and solve poverty in a nation that has been steeped in such for eons but that mean any assistance should stop? I guess he could say there are some hidden WMD in the land over there and we could go conquer the country in the name of mom, baseball, democracy and the american way Oh shit someone else already tried that in the middle east!!!

BB look at a "real article" about the illegals remaining in the US and this is from a right leaning journalist

Wall Street Journal

By JOEL MILLMAN
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano extended temporary amnesty to Haitians who were illegally inside the U.S. before Tuesday's earthquake, but warned that the Coast Guard would turn back any new refugees fleeing the devastation.

The so-called temporary protected status, or TPS, doesn't apply to any Haitians who may try now to get into the U.S. If refugees take to the sea€”the normal reaction to turmoil throughout Haiti's recent history€”officials in the U.S. and other countries will have to grapple with how to deal with a new wave of immigrants, most of whom will arrive without visas.

Ms. Napolitano warned that no new arrivals would get amnesty and the U.S. Coast Guard and other authorities would move quickly to stop new migrants. "People should not leave Haiti with the false belief that they will be entitled to TPS in the United States," she said. She also said, "We are seeing no signs of any sort of migration of that nature at this point."


Of course Oxyman and the rest of reich would prefer they ship them all back and let them contribute to more of the homeless and destitute.

And I have already told you I disagree with what Glover and I haven't heard any commentary from Sharpton, who I almost never agree with, Waters or Schumer so not sure where you are going with that comment. Unlike the normal reich winger I try to listen to all sides of an arguement before forming any opinions. That's why I enjoy Meet the Press and This Week so much because they show all sides. I could stay tuned to Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow all day like you seem to stay glued to Oxyman, Sarah, Hannity etal but I don't I enjoy all sides and then make my comments. Although they may seem to be generally left leaning they are more moderate then you realize.

So bottom line this country began on its charity and assistnace to counries in need and always will be that way despite the whining from the reich wing

[smuttleydfs]

This from moderate conservative Kathleen Parker

Tragedy often brings out the best in some people. And sometimes, it brings out the worst.


Please direct your attention to Exhibits A and B, Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh.

No one should be surprised that Robertson invokes God's wrath or Satan's trade-offs when horror hits. Whether it's a hurricane, a terrorist attack or an earthquake, one can be fairly certain that Robertson's Ouija board will point to a supernatural explanation.

Invariably, he blames the victims or some third-party behavior favored by Satan and frowned upon by God. What was behind the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11? America's moral decay. Hurricane Katrina? Abortion. Haiti's earthquake? A deal with the devil.

"True story," said Robertson on his television program, "The 700 Club." He explained that when Haiti was a French colony, rebels "swore a pact to the devil," saying, "We will serve you if you will get us free from the French.

"And so the devil said . . . ."

Excuse me just a sec while I pause to appreciate this moment. I'm pretty certain this is the first time I've ever quoted Satan. To proceed:

"And so the devil said, 'Okay, it's a deal.' "


Okay? Deal? But of course the devil would be prosaic.

Ever since, Robertson continued, "they [Haitians] have been cursed by one thing after the other."

How is one to interpret such an assertion? Apparently, Robertson was referring to a voodoo ceremony in 1791 that some historians believe was a spark for the revolution. The call to revolt was issued by Dutty Boukman, a voodoo priest and leader of the Maroon slaves. The resulting uprising, which ultimately led to Haiti's independence, claimed the lives of thousands of colonialists and slaves.

For whose side does Robertson imagine God was pulling? The slave owners'? And does he really think that the devil is collecting on his debt by destroying thousands of lives in the earthquake and maiming countless more?

Robertson's "700 Club" is soliciting prayers as well as donations, some of which will find their way to Haiti's destitute and displaced. But having to hear from Robertson and entertain his devilish interpretations of events is a high price for charity. If the people of Haiti are cursed, as Robertson insists, it is partly the legacy of slavery -- surely the devil's work? -- that is to blame. Earthquakes answer to no demon, and the shifting of tectonic plates should be no mystery to 21st-century man.

In Robertson's literal world of superstition and fear, a fault's rupture may signify a belch of the beast, but in the real world of science and knowledge, it is a natural, if disruptive, occurrence that bears no malice toward any particular man, woman or child.

That we are having this conversation is ridiculous -- obviously, one would hope. That some percentage of the 1 million daily viewers of "The 700 Club" might pray and tithe to the speaker of such bile is far scarier than any voodoo curse.

Equally ill-timed and foolish, if not nearly as insane, were Limbaugh's remarks upon news of the earthquake:

"This will play right into [President] Obama's hands -- humanitarian, compassionate. They'll use this to burnish their, shall we say, credibility with the black community -- in the both light-skinned and dark-skinned black community in this country. It's made to order for them."

Limbaugh, like Robertson, has been duly condemned for his comments. The fact that he in part was lampooning Harry Reid for the Senate leader's now-famous comments about Obama's light skin (as a political plus) does not diminish the awfulness of Limbaugh's cynicism. What's worse: Reid's antiquated observation that Obama betrays no "Negro dialect" in his diction, or Limbaugh's implication that an African American president, in helping a devastated black population, might be trying to embellish his street cred?


Is it possible that Limbaugh doesn't know Haiti's history also includes the post-slavery oppression of dark-skinned descendants of slaves by the lighter-skinned descendants of colonialists who bred with the enslaved?

Surely, there should be the occasional time and place when circumstances transcend the usual and free us from the race-baiting and ignorance-pandering panhandling that characterizes so much of American politics: When God and Satan are given a holiday from the news cycle. When a president can be granted the pure motives of a good nation. When science isn't an insult to the divine and no demon earns credit for human misery.

Haiti is one of those places. Now should be one of those times.

And you guys expect me to believe you really agree with these comments by a painkiller addicted pmpous asshole?

Methinks priorities are askew

[Bumpa STIKKA]

Well, if the USA can bankrupt a nation to save a few hundred bankers then I reckon a few shipments of rice and iodine tablets to a million poor blacks would be OK!

But remember - once again it's the tax payer who has to pay and NOT the politicians signing off on the cash!

Can't stand that pig Limbaugh but he's on the money over the Haiti deal.