The Real Irish History

[katoeylover]

(seamus @ Apr. 29 2009,20:12) I'm a Celt & dont give a feck who tells Me I'm not  

You're a plastic Paddy from east london!!

[jimslim]

(paultain @ Apr. 29 2009,15:23) its not wrong I researched it for 2 years

Well then it must be right , people have spent centuries researching the bible and like you they also must be right ...............

[paultain]

As the words €˜Myth€™, €˜Bollocks€™, and a sarcastic €˜It must be true€™ is used here, that€™s all very well. But that€™s not an educated argument.

Instead of that, tell me how far back does your Irish history go? St. Patrick?

Tell me your version of Irish history! Let€™s see your argument! Instead of ignorantly coming out with, Myth, Bollocks, and €˜Must be true€™, like a bunch of girl guides.

Don€™t get me wrong, I think that the Irish folk lore is nice romantic yarns. But the yarns must come from some original point. Bear in mind that the first part of this thread is from an extensive study of the Bible, Torah, and Koran, that link to Irish history. But then again these books are nothing but Myths, written long after the facts, in a way that was politically correct for the churches. But the yarns in these books do have some original point.

Here is the first of the preface, of an unfinished book I am working on, €œTrue Testaments€.

€œKnowledge, doesn€™t give answers €“ Answers constitute knowledge. In the absence of knowledge we tend to turn to faith, but then we use that faith to make a knowledgeable claim. But there is an obvious error here, that is, knowledge and faith are in different realms. Reason cannot disprove faith, nor can faith interfere with reason.€

[jimslim]

Myths and yarns are all they are , science teaches us that it is a fact that man has been on the earth for millions of years and that the first civilization began in Africa .

Up until the last century people believed that the world had only existed a few thousand years on the basis of myths and handed down stories from holy men , before that they believed the world was flat , before that they worshiped the sun .

To try and link Irish history to lost tribes in the Middle East is stretching it a little though , you are correct all history has a certain starting point so any ancestry can be traced back to a certain point , but this is long before the formation of countries and peoples and long before the feudal and capitalist societies , and long before the wars and invasions that created those societies .

I'll give you an example , it is now pretty much excepted as an historical fact by believers and non believers that there was a Jesus of Nazareth who lived around the time written in the bible , wether or not he walked on water , turned water into wine and was the sun of God is still a matter up for debate , this is were a fact is then turned into a myth .

Irish history ! Jesus where would anyone start on that one ? every bit of Irish history has been written and re-written to suit different political viewpoints and justify certain actions .

I read a theory similar to yours a while back only from extreme loyalists who reckon the Protestant people of the North are a lost tribe of Israel and so link their struggles to the current day situation in the Middle East .

Interesting stuff to read but never take it as fact .

[paultain]

Nice one Jimslim, your argument is appreciated

(Your first point)
I almost totally agree with you there, and can see you do know a good bit. But as far as science of the past goes, its still got to go a long way, and I wouldn€™t put a bet on that horse called €˜science€™ it might come in third.

Although what I have written (which is only part of a chapter) only goes back approx; 12-15,000 years, I don€™t dispute that the origins of man came from Africa millions of years before that. But I personally can€™t see why science wants us to believe that there was only one particular point on this planet, where everything started. Surely this bacterial single cell organism miracle, could have began on other parts of the planet simultaneously, as the atmospheric conditions for this to happen, was almost world wide. I dispute the fact that this happened in any one point, when conditions where exactly the same, 3000, 5000 7000 miles away, but that€™s just my opinion.

(Your second point)
I totally agree with you there, but don€™t forget wile the so-called educated Europeans thought the world was flat, a few hundred years before they discovered it was round, in the Koran it is egg shaped (they almost got it right). And let€™s not forget the ancient maps which predate from what we have been told, which charted the world like the Piri Reis maps, and others that are now coming to light. Longitudes were not able to be accurately calculated until the 1770€™s when John Harrison invented the chronometer No 4. However, the Piri Reis map has the correct and accurate relative longitudes of the world. Until John Harrison died he was laughed at and no one bothered to use his invention.

I would like to think that astrology was the main theme in ancient times, when man gazed up to the heavens and felt so small, and when it came to explaining it to the ignorant Shepard and farmer, the gods came into it. Then the so-called holy men came alone and latched on to the pagan yarns, only to put a new cover on an old book so to speak.

(Your third point)
Yes Jim, linking Irish history to the Middle East might be stretching it a little. But I have to point out the origins of the word €˜Gaelic€™ not €˜Irish€™. When I studied the Vishnu Purana, and the Mahabharata (Hindu Sanskrit) it€™s documented there that 12,000 years ago, settlers and traders came ashore on the Indian coast known as the Gaelic People from the north. A lot of people like to think that these traders were Irish. But the description of this Gaelic race, was not anywhere near European, they were described as more middle eastern, and the land that they came from.

I loved your line here; €œbut this is long before the formation of countries and peoples and long before the feudal and capitalist societies, and long before the wars and invasions that created those societies€. I defiantly think the same way here; from the simple way of life of the hunters and gatherers, wars and atrocities came from the formation cities, countries, nations, and societies. This is where the €˜Origins of Evil€™ was really born, through greed, lust, and envy, over what the other neighbor has.
When Mahatma Gandhi was asked about civilization, he said; €œYes! It would be a good idea!€

When the great scientist and humanitarian William Rick was asked about civilization, he replied; €œWe have never had it yet!€


(Your forth point)
As the name Jesus was quite common in those days, sure there was plenty of Jesus€™s knocking around. But there is more than enough evidence that this Jesus bloke that they all write about, and believe in, did not exist in the first place. Example:

MITHRA (1,200 BC, Persia)
MITHRA legend bares remarkable similarities to the stories of Jesus. He was born of a virgin on the 25th December, shared a final meal with his 12 disciples before being called to heaven, died for 3 days, resurrected and returns to Earth, and was called €˜Son of God€™.

Mithraism, a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire in the 1st century up until the 4th century CE. Practiced in, Rome, Ostia, Mauretania, Britain, and provinces along the Rhine and Danube. The Roman legions worshiped €˜Mithra€™, as the €˜God of the Soldiers€™.

A new member of MITHRAISM is initiated in a secret rite similar to today€™s Masonic institution. His eyes are blindfolded and hands tied. His ties are cut, symbolizing the removal of his ties to the world. His eyes are symbolically opened, with the removal of the blindfold. Only then can he join in the sacrificial meal.

This ritual meal of MITHRAISM, is bread and wine, and it is meant to invoke the sacrificial body and blood of MITHRA, just like €˜Jesus and the Last Supper€™, or Christians celebrating the mass. But who copied who? Remember MITHRA was 1,200 years before the Jesus story.

Not forgetting HORUS (3,000 BCE) which had more similarities to this so-called Jesus. And they are only two out of 34 characters, that is documented of all having being born of a virgin birth, 25th Dec, died for 3 days and a resurrection, and had 12 disciples or followers. Over a thousand years these stories were circulating, before they started writing down about this Jesus.

All the great Greek and Roman writers of that period, which documented events well, never mention this Jesus. And as far as the trial of Pontius Pilot was concerned, it was never documented by the Romans. And as Pilot was a pretty ruthless leader, but well respected by his men, and letting a murderer free, that killed one of his own men, and risk losing face and respect and loyalty from his own men, I think not.

(Your fifth point)
Agreed, and I suppose I am guilty of that also, re-writing it to suit my viewpoint but as far as €˜Milesius€™ is concerned, I think that is pretty much fact. As my family name begins with one of his grandsons, the tower in Spain was rebuilt, after it was destroyed in WWII. I guess that is the connection between the Basque culture and the Irish culture, right down to their traditional music, with the similar pipes and reels.

It is interesting stuff, but I do like to think there are some facts there somewhere, as studying other ancient books, (not just what is written in Ireland, by Christian monks, under the control of the Vatican) you can start to connect the dots.

Anyway thanks for you intelligent point of view.

[jimslim]

Thanks Paul , not sure if you've read it but if you track it down its a good read ...

The Meek and the Militant - religion and power across the world , by Paul N Siegel (Zed books)

An excellent critique of how all religions have evolved and adapted to suit systems and tie the masses to it , some interesting stuff there .

[paultain]

Cheers Jim,

It looks like a good read........... just read the preface........ being a Buddhist I'm not too sure about this line;

"What accounts for the €˜new face€™ of Buddhism? How did Buddhist monks, who are supposed to be unconcerned with the things of this world and to regard all life as sacred, come to participate in the armed struggle against imperialism and to play an important role in the politics of Asia after World War II?"

But I will read it more deeply later to see what hes on about....... but all in all it looks interesting in deed.

Jim, your not a Marxist by any chance?

[paultain]

Connecting the dots just for a bit of fun, and nothing serious, just for entertaining purposes.

St. Patrick (400ad €“ 500ad) €œBehold I have cast out the serpents from the land €œ

The Tuatha De Dannan (The tribe of the Goddess Danu) around 6,000 BC

The high preist of the Tuatha De Dannan was named€¦.

NUADA or NADA (In English is) NUAH or NOAH

When they arrived, they came on ships, ships they were told to build in order to survive this great catastrophe, which they were forewarned this was going to happen to them, and then arriving safely in the haven of Ireland. (Reversals thousands of miles away and we have a very similar story going on)

They also explained about their land or 4 islands

Falias €“ Murias €“ Gorias €“ Finias

And other lands such as€¦€¦

Tir Taimgire (Land of Promise ) - Mag Mell (Plain of Happiness) Tir Nam Beo (Land of the Living) - Tir Na N€™og (Land of the Young)

These druids had as well as physic power also had magical weapons€¦..
SWORD OF NUADA (The Retaliator)
LANCE (wand) OF LUGH (The Sun God)
CAULDRON (cup) OF DAGDA (Hercules type God)
STONE (plate) OF MANANNAN (Similar to the stone of Beth Jeramia)(also the Isle of Mann was named after MANANNAN)

Strange as they are the 4 suits of the Taro cards. (Cup, Wand, Sword and Plate)

Taro cards were invented and used by the ancient Egyptians and the ancient Semites?

Those Egyptians that practiced the Taro were later persecuted and banished by the early church, and became known as €˜Gypsies€™ which is the root of €˜Egypt€™.

Young LUGH (The Sun God) has to come out and do battle with an evil giant. A very evil being which was connected to a race called the Fomorians which invaded Ireland long before the tuatha de dannan tribe. The young LUGH is said to come out and defeat the evil giant Bailor of the evil eye with a sling shot, in order to save his people.
(Reversals thousands of miles away and we have a very similar story going on, a young boy who saves his people with a sling shot against an evil giant)

Bailor of the evil eye was a member of the earliest aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland. A very mysterious race called the Fomorian race.

Fomhoraigh means Giant and also derives from the term meaning €˜those from under the sea€™.

One of the ancient Celtic names of the lost islands was Tir fo Thiann meaning €˜Land under the wave€™.

King Conan was the king of the Fomorians for a time. And it is written €œIn Conan€™s veins flowed the blood of ancient Atlantis€.

Genesis (6:8)
€œThere were giants in the earth in those days. And also after that when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men and they bear children to them€.

The tribe of tuatha de dannan went by the name of €œThe Serpent Priests€.
In ancient Egypt they had a €œSerpent Culture€, they were called €œThe Djedhi or Jedi€.
The Egyptian noted these Jedi as very magical druids with special powers.

Fin Ma Coul Was a hero of the Fenian cycle and last of the giants. His name means €œWhite Foreigner€ or €œWhite Gael€. He was the father of Ossian and son of Cuchulainn.

The word Fenian derives from €œPhoenician€ the maritime race that originated from Britain and not the Middle-East.

The €œPhoenicians€ would later become known the €œVenetians€.

The name Cuchulainn hero of Ireland. Is very similar to €œKUKULKAN€ hero of Mexico.
(€œKUKULKAN€ means €œFeathered Serpent€)
(Digging deeper we find these two heroes are far too similar.)

It is a fact that the €œNorse €“ Edda€ the ancient holy book of the Norsemen and Tutons written by the Sculls, is known as the €œNorse €“ Edda€

And the €œSanskrit €“ Veda€ the ancient holy book of northern south Asia and of Sri Lanka and other Hindu scriptures.
Take the €˜V€™ off €˜Veda€™ which leaves €˜eda€™ or (€˜Edda€™)
€˜Veda€™ and €˜Edda€™ both mean holy book.

Also these holy books are similar to lists, events, stories etc. inside both books, which can be proven and has been written about.

MOSES
Wile in the wilderness, Moses was said to have carried a standard known as the €œBrazen Serpent€. Since the Old Testament strictly forbids €œgraven images of God€, we can surmise the €œBrazen Serpent€ was a very important symbol of power, which was not forbidden.

When Moses destroyed the Malachite€™s he erected a pillar to €œJehovah Nissi€ which means €œGod of the Serpents€.

THE NASHON TRIBE
A Judaic tribe, of which King David was a member. The name €˜Nashon€™ means €˜Serpent€™ and it is where we get the modern word €˜Nation€™ that we use today.

Over 2,000 bc, the Sumerian name for the Giza Pyramid was €œThe House of the Serpent€.

Before the name €œEgypt€ the land was called €œKemet€ and at that time the people outside the region of Kemet referred to it as €œThe Land of the Tree and the Serpent€.

Bohto a pharaoh of north Egypt was always shown as a winged serpent wearing a crown, in all the hieroglyphics.

Ancient tribes of Canada, North America, Mexico and South American countries, have all depicted €˜winged serpents€™ in their culture, in painting, bark books, cave drawing and totem poles etc.

A well known historian once stated €œZeus is one of the few Greek Gods who never appears attended by a snake€. This is not true, there are some images of him with snakes.
But this statement implies that all Gods appear with snakes.

From the book €œIsis Unveiled€ by H.P.Blavatsky ;

Pythagoras never allowed his Neophytes to see him during the years of probation, but instructed them from behind a curtain in his cave. The name €œPythagoras€ means €œI am a Python€

Now back to the Arthurian legend. King Arthur or Arthur Pendragon son of Luther Pendragon. This name €˜Pendragon€™ means €˜Head of the Dragons€™.

Also the ancient standing stones (circles) are also known as €˜dragon€™s teeth€™.

Alfred Watkins discovered what is now known as the €œLay-Lines€ or €œDragon-Paths€ (Synchronic Lines) Watkins and others understood that these lines were used by ancient people for designing and lining up their cities and monuments, which can be still seen today.

Not forgetting that in Britain €œThe Avebury Serpent€ is an ancient man made monument in Avebury which is 8 miles long. Another good point about Lay-Lines is that many churches, cathedrals, and other famous buildings, have been purposely erected on the axis of these Lay-Lines.
Also in Ohio, America. There is a very famous earth work which is being studied at this time. Experts yet do not know if Native Americans or Aboriginals caused this. It€™s a vast mound and from the air which looks like a giant serpent.

Dragon symbols, signs, and images have been used all over the world in ancient times, from China to Japan, Thailand to India, Egypt to Norway and including Britain to Ireland. In all these ancient races of the world, dragons were believed to be a composite of the 4 elements.

The UROBOROS (a coiled serpent like dragons) can be found in ancient drawings etc. in China, Mexico and Egypt. The UROBOROS is depicted as a serpent like dragon, coiled in a circle and grasping its own tail. The remarkable thing about this is, they are all identical and made many thousands of miles away from each of these ancient races.

THE NORSE MIDGUARD SERPENT (SERPENT LIKE DRAGON)
According to the Norse - Edda, Odin took Loki's three children, Fenrisulfr, Hel and Jörmungandr. He tossed Jörmungandr into the great ocean that encircles Midguard. The serpent grew so big that he was able to surround the Earth and grasp his own tail, and as a result he earned the alternate name of the Midgard Serpent or World Serpent. Jörmungandr's arch enemy is the god Thor.
(This implies that the world was known to be round in ancient times)

OLD TESTEMENT
In the Old Testament, in fact all the Holy Books such as, The Torah, The Kabbalah, The Book of Revelations, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc. We find the Angels €œThe Seraphim€ (1st ranking Angels) and the €œThe Cherubim€ (2nd ranking Angels).

Seraphim and Cherubim is translated "fiery flying serpent" from the Hebrew and is the word used for the serpents that bit the Israelites in the wilderness. Num. 21:6 "So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died."

And of coarse let€™s not forget the famous Serpent of Adam and Eve, and at the same time the Angels or "fiery flying serpent", one can surmise that this must have been a bit confusing for Adam and Eve.

But what the Christians will fail to tell you or they probably don€™t know, is the earliest symbol of the cross was always attended with a serpent wrapped around it.

Book of Revelations
€œAnd the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was cast down to Earth and his Angels were cast down with him.€

JESUS
Jesus at the last supper said €œBe ye as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents€.
We find out the famous location of the capitol of Ireland, where the kings would sit, on the east coast in Co. Meath. It was known as €˜Tara€™ but in Gaelic it is €˜Drumcain€™ or €˜Hill of the Serpent€™ in English.

CANAAN or CAINNAN (The word for serpent is cain. In fact in the bible €œThe Land of Cainnan€ means €œThe Land of the Serpents€)

COHEN (Which is given to many Jewish people and quite common among the Jews. But ask any rabbi what it actually means, and they will tell you, the word €œCohen€ means €œ Serpent Priest€.)

CAIN (As in Michael Cain derives from Serpent.)
CAAN (As in James Caan derives from Serpent.)
CHAN (In the far east means Serpent.)
KHAN (In the middle east means Serpent.)
KIERAN (Irish male first name derives from Serpent.)
CAREN or KAREN (Irish female first name derives from Serpent.)
CARN (A word for death and also means Serpent.)

Visit any Catholic Church in Ireland and observe the statues of any saint not only St. Patrick. And you will them standing with serpents under their feet.

So back to ST. PATRICK and his statement €œBehold, I have cast out the serpents from the land€.
He is not talking about physical snakes; it is political, theological propaganda. Implying that Christianity is here €œI have arrived€. (There€™s a new sheriff in town)

Well I hope that entertained you

[allstar88]

its not where youre from but where youre at

[paultain]

true mate

[marshal]

(katoeylover @ Apr. 30 2009,05:39)

(seamus @ Apr. 29 2009,20:12) I'm a Celt & dont give a feck who tells Me I'm not  

You're a plastic Paddy from east london!!

Plastic Paddy

[marshal]

The cornish,welsh,scots,irish and bretons are all celts me old son

[bigmick22]

(jimslim @ Apr. 30 2009,17:05) To try and link Irish history to lost tribes in the Middle East is stretching it a little though ,

quite popular in the foundation myths of a number of European countries to try and establish a link between themselves and the holy land in order to confer some sort of legitimacy and maybe even claim that their country was the destination of one of the lost tribes of Israel - i.e. they are, themselves, the decendants of the chosen people etc etc (witness the Arthurian legends and stories of Holy Grails, Joseph etc coming to Britain)

These foundation myths are usually written hundreds (if not thousands) of years after the events they purport to relate. All very interesting and many myths have some grounding in fact but the inclusion of "Real History" in the title of this thread is a misnomer