Good riddance, you FAT FUCK!

[stogie bear]

He didn't invade other countries, he never killed anyone, he didn't torture and rape thousands, he never exterminated ethnic or racial groups.

He was a political bully who used the scam of Christianity to divide Americans and turn them against each other.

His enemies were the American culture NOT the American polititions but (being the meglamainiacal madman that he most certainly was) he never figured this out.

He believed that the seperation of church and state was the work of the devil and fought like a dictatorial madman to prevent this. He also believed that if you weren't for him you should be destroyed.

Some men are just pure evil... He, like Hitler, is such a man.

Indirectly he is responsible for the things that the above quote says that he shied away from.

May he find kinder and gentler judgment in the next world than he showed others in this one.

[Guest]

The two posts above are key to my point. I'm not defending Jerry Falwell, I'm not even talking about him. My subject is us (in this group, but also people at large).

Any man why claims to be a man of god is not, because there is no such thing.
To say again, my point is that people live in a tabloid culture where we turn public figures into 2 dimmensional charicature arch-villains like from a bad sci-fi movie.

My point that it is centrally important to say he is/was wrong is that he does what every single one of us does. He will live out all the actions of his life according to what he believes. He did it with more drive and determination than most of us middle-class folks have. We all live our life philosophy every day, whether we acknowledge or even think about whether we have a philosophy.

Jerry Falwell got up every day and strived as hard as he could with the beliefs that he had. Just like a loaded gun or a rocket, that is blind dumb power. That motive force could be good or bad. You wouldn't tell someone to live half-assed if they're a bad guy and live whole hog if you're a good guy. That's dumb because no one would admit or recognize which one they were.

This is why it is so important to identify and recognize the single fundamental point, his beliefs, his philosophy- as being wrong. Just like a gun- it is right if it is aimed at the robber, wrong if it is aimed at you. But you don't say to the gun, fire wimpy. You correct the aim.

The source of our actions is important, this goes for Hitler, Mao, George Bush, Thatcher, Bill Gates, the Pope, anyone. Your philosophy is your aim, it is the target programmed in to your rocket. This is why for me (and this is why I brought this up) it is so important to discuss and influence people everyday in their IDEAS. Instead, what we do now is gossip about people, as two dimensional celebrity characters.

Jerry Falwell is dead, but his ideas (wrong ones) live on in a million other Christians and Muslims - the magical belief in a universe after the one we know, which keeps people from choosing a morality based in THIS world.

Meanwhile, while the footsoldiers die, and the bad ideas still propogate like virus (communism, religion, greed, whatever) we attack the Guy Fawkes dummy pinata and have a blase' attitude that "everyones point of view is equally valid" and we don't dare talk about money, politics, or religion. We want to see Angelina Jolie, David Beckham, and Kim Jong Il live out the big screen drama for our amusement and so we don't actually have to think about the power that those initial ideas (bad aim) have.

[Guest]

I disagree.

He was not a "2 dimmensional charicature arch-villain like from a bad sci-fi movie."

He was a real villain, who lived in real-life and, given his body habitus, he had at least 3 dimensions.

You make a big point about his "ideas", and how the tabloid culture tends to focus on the man at the expense of his ideas.

But I submit to you that Falwell had no original ideas of his own. He borrowed existing evangelical theology and mixed it with socially conservative, old-time southern politics in an unoriginal way. Falwell was no intellectual driving force, he was only charismatic (in a Lynchburg Virginia, Christianist, sense), and used this charisma to successfully promote himself and his business.

The individual man as a demagogue, and how society avoids falling under such a person's spell, is a subject of immense importance. Falwell's charisma and persona are more important than any of his "ideas", because there were none, only old style Southern Baptist politics that were promoted by a demon of a man. To this end, the study of Falwell the man and the villain is entirely appropriate for discussion.

[Guest]

And once again, you prove my point. Someone else will step in to fill his shoes. Because those ideas are still viable to a lot of people. Even if they are wrong, or unoriginal, they are still ideas.

The focus should be on why they are wrong, and getting people to think- not on one man. At one time you say he is important, and then you say he had no original ideas.

It's about ideas. People and events are transient.

[Guest]

(grunyen @ May 21 2007,13:41) And once again, you prove my point..

I understand your point to be that when someone dies, the tabloid culture thrives on attacks on the person, rather than attacks on his ideas. I say that ideas are not the only factor, the person who promoted these ideas matters also.

The fact that I disagree with you about the importance of ideas does not prove your point. Proving your point is extraneous to this discussion... it is really not about you.

(grunyen @ May 21 2007,13:41) Someone else will step in to fill his shoes. Because those ideas are still viable to a lot of people. Even if they are wrong, or unoriginal, they are still ideas.

While he was alive, others like him wore the same shoes. Before he was alive, there were those who wore the shoes. It is all very unoriginal, and the shoes themselves have been discussed to death.

The shoes in this case are ideas, and in the case of Falwell and his "ministry", the ideas were nothing more than old myths and prejudices supported by faith and fear of hell. How do you reason with the holders of those beliefs and convince them of the error of their ways? You cannot. What matters then is whether a future Falwell can come along and organize a following by appealing to fear and superstition using the force of personality.

Some are more successful than others at promoting themselves, and thus winning followers.  It cannot only be about ideas, the demagogue's persona matters too.

(grunyen @ May 21 2007,13:41) The focus should be on why they are wrong, and getting people to think- not on one man.

Without the demagogue's cult of personality, the ideas may seem quite banal. If you want to fight demagoguery, it is not enough just to say "I don't agree with any ideas" that the demagogue promoted; you must study the demagogue himself and understand why and how he was a villain.

(grunyen @ May 21 2007,13:41) At one time you say he is important, and then you say he had no original ideas.

These are not mutually exclusive.