Definition of Gender

[Guest]

Well, old topic, new flavor.

I'm reading up a lot on the Hijra of India. They define gender and sexual orientation basically in terms of who fucks and who is fucked. Likewise, I read, for Brazilians, and a few books on Thai culture indicate a similar view in some parts of Thailand. What I mean by that is to be penetrated is to be "gay", with negative perceptions of "class", and to penetrate is not gay, but still "manly", without those negative perceptions.

I was always annoyed by people on this forum who followed this thought process, as it seems counter to the open-ness of the forum, and frankly, seems totally stupid to me.

How can you admire, suck, and desire a cock, but, oh no, when you let that cock fuck you, you suddenly become a different human being, with different characteristics, and are immediately put into a lower class of invidividuals; it's truly amazing logic. Many of these same people say "no labels", "do what you want", which is obviously rhetoric, if in the same breath you assign people who get topped a label.

Anyhow, I post this, because, those of you who think that way have compatriots in antiquated class-oriented India.

That should stir the pot.

[PigDogg]

If we look at it in terms of yin-yang energy then bottoming is an expression of one's yin energy.

Likewise in S&M, being in the submissive role in an expression of one's yin energy.

But what we do in the bedroom is not the energy that is projected in day to day living. Sometimes it's the exact opposite.

We all have both yin and yang energy within us and most guys have more yang.

[Guest]

That notion that to be bottom is submissive is "socially constructed" meaning, it is not a physical reality, it is an artificial creation in a particular culture's mind.

Note that other cultures do NOT think this way, for example, the good 'ole USA, where to be bottom or top implies homosexuality (i.e., the US essentially views both roles as "submissive"). This is contrary to the Indians and Brazilians who do NOT associate homosexuality with tops. My point being, gender and sexuality are "socially constructed" and not universal.

[Road Runner]

The animal kingdom (that includes humans!) works on the basis of hierarchy.   Like it or not  -  in your family life  -  work  -  and time off  -  you try to position yourself within your society.

It's quite common to see animals 'mounting' each other.   The first example that comes to my mind is cows  -  but they are most certainly not the only ones.
OK  -  why would a cow (female) do this to another?    One of the reasons for this is to assert an idividual's higher position against a lesser  -  that's the way it works with animals.    
I can almost hear the keyboard keys now  

That notion that to be bottom is submissive is "socially constructed" meaning, it is not a physical reality, it is an artificial creation in a particular culture's mind

What did I miss?!  -  by definition  -  a 'bottom' is submissive.  That's the way it works.

My point being, gender and sexuality are "socially constructed" and not universal

Gender and sexuality are part of our internal makeup.
Our gender is determined by our genes.  OK sometimes this is messed up - hence transsexuals and intersex (hermaphrodites).
Sexuality is determined by what goes in inside our brains  -  I'm less able to explain how this works but your brain can be one of several shades of male of female.

That notion that to be bottom is submissive is "socially constructed" meaning, it is not a physical reality, it is an artificial creation in a particular culture's mind

I agree that the concept of a top/bottom' is partially a social construct  -  but only in the sense of what I said above  -  that it's to do with positioning yourself within your social group.
It is also 'sexually' a way of submitting to your partner.


RR.

[stogie bear]

I'm totally muddled by this thread!

[Road Runner]

(stogie bear @ Jun. 18 2006,01:10) I'm totally muddled by this thread!  

This probably won't help

Gender

Sexuality

RR.

[Guest]

I was waiting to post something like that.

Duh, "bottom" does not mean bottom. You can be receptive and be on top. That is not submissive, it's the one in charge.

Gender is socially constructed. It is not gene constructed. The concept of masculine, feminine is a social construct. Other cultures have well accepted other genders, like the berdache North American Indians, even the continental Indians. There have been and are other culutures where you can grow up and be a 3rd or 4th gender; vs the West where there are only 2 "normative" genders.

How you feel -- nobody knows whether that is gene, hormone, brain, or environment based. Most think all of those things.

However, how you feel usually has to be pegged into one of the genders your particular culture has, in order for you to practically survive. In the West no matter how you feel, you are pegged into masculine, feminine, but other cultures allow you to be pegged into a different gender.

All of this is separate from the top/bottom idea somewhat.

[brocklanders]

To muddle things up even more, I also believe that sucking cock is in the same category as guys that get bottomed. They are both equally submissive acts and for me qualifies a man as at least bisexual. May sound archaic and judgmental but I guarantee you I am not alone in this area. Yes, this is a ladyboy site so all of us are probably in a category that has no definition but many guys like the boy part of ladyboy and others like the lady part....different strokes, etc.

[kahuna]

(brocklanders @ Jun. 18 2006,12:49) Yes, this is a ladyboy site so all of us are probably in a category that has no definition but many guys like the boy part of ladyboy and others like the lady part....different strokes, etc.

And some of us, well at least one of us, likes all the parts....

kahuna

[relpax]

(kahuna @ Jun. 18 2006,12:59)

(brocklanders @ Jun. 18 2006,12:49) Yes, this is a ladyboy site so all of us are probably in a category that has no definition but many guys like the boy part of ladyboy and others like the lady part....different strokes, etc.

And some of us, well at least one of us, likes all the parts....

kahuna

ok. i gotta go with kahuna on this one.

on the other hand, i don't give two turds whether brocklanders or others think i am a flaming faggot, at least bi, straight, or unknown.

people waste so much time and effort trying to place others in neat little boxes. to each their own i suppose. while some of you guys are trying to figure out which box we fit into, i am going to be enjoying life and hopefully as many lbs and/or gg as humanly possible.

[stogie bear]

Gender is socially constructed. It is not gene constructed.

Half true. The first half.

One interpretation of the word 'gender' can mean the social definition of masculinity or femininity.

The second (and more widely known and understood definition) is the biological (genetic) distinction of males and females.

Simply put...

Gender can be sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture OR the sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.

Let's not get too carried away with labels, eh? And let's also not get too bogged down with internet quacks who think they know anything based on a course at University written in the middle ages by twisted freaks who can't see beyond their bi-focals!  

[stogie bear]

I also believe that sucking cock is in the same category as guys that get bottomed.

Well, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion!

[Guest]

Sorry Stogie, you're wrong on the definitions.

Sex is biological. Male, female.

Gender is psychological. Masculine, feminine.

There is no definition of gender that makes it biological.

There is an implied assumption that sex aligns with gender aligns with sexuality, but that's the closest gender ever gets to being biological.

I actually didn't want to restart the "are you gay" debate that's been on the forum 1000 times. I was more bringing up the fact that whilst y'all think you're not judgemental, you're view that "bottom=gay" absolutely implies you are judgemental, because "bottom=gay" is not a universal view. It is not factual. It is judgemental (much as the "suck=gay" is judgemental.

[stogie bear]

(ziggystardust @ Jun. 18 2006,17:57)
There is no definition of gender that makes it biological.

[quote=[b]dictionary.com[/b]!]

gen·der - noun.
1 - The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
2 - Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

[Torurot]

Unless there is an extreme power imbalance or coercion, a "Submisive" ALLOWS the other to do whatever. It's not one way, so a "submisive" still pulls the strings.