Now it's my turn...

[Lefty]

(JaiDee @ Nov. 08 2009,19:09)

(Lefty @ Nov. 08 2009,14:33) BUT...IF.... I had to lie to stay here, or if I had to bring misery to ANYONE else, financially or otherwise, to remain living in Thailand, I would leave tomorrow!!!

OK man,  have to take you at your word in this case;  if you are serious then indeed you are  a better person than many others {thai, ladyboy, ladyboy, falang, etc.....} who would take the easy way out; which in the context of this thread is to lie, steal, cheat and basically do ANYTHING in order to make a better life for themselves and their families.


    The good news is that you will probably never have to be tested;  these poor people from Issan and other parts of thailand are tested literally every day .... lie and pretend and spend time with someone I don't love for the good of my family and myself, or pack it all in and be knee-deep in mud back up on the family farm?  thank God you don't really have to make that same choice and it was all just hypothetical, but indeed if you are being honest here you deserve a couple of the things you like to use yourself;      

You are absolutely right about that JD. It's a good thing too, because if we were, most of us would fail.

And, if I were to fall into the misfortune as you described hypothetically previous, and if I did do what I said I would, the most miserable job I could get back home would still beat working in a rice paddy all day long, day after day.

[Lefty]

(Naang Faa @ Nov. 08 2009,17:39)

(Lefty @ Nov. 08 2009,08:33) I'd not be the same as any lb who may lie to gain a financial advantage over some lovestruck, addle brained farang.

That's rich coming from a guy who flies
 across the globe to exploit the cheap cost of living,
 Then won't pay more than 500 baht for a ladyboy
 taking advantage of their financial desperation for
 nothing more than your own sexual gratification..
 You are no better than the scammers lefty
 You maybe upfront about your intentions but you are
 exploiting a situation for what you want same as the girls.

                                                                                    x

You don't know what you're talking about. You take one thing I said out of context and use it to support your long standing disdain for all men who fly to Thailand to meet ladyboys and have sex with them. In the hypothetical situation JD laid out, it would not be the same thing. Whether you like or not, believe it or not.

As for my never paying over 500 baht, again you are totally full of it, because you have no idea what I pay. Although it is certainly none of your business, I've paid a lot more than that plenty of times, as have most everyone on this forum.  Yes, I have paid here for sexual pleasure. So what the fuck is your point? This entire forum is primarily supported by men who go to LOS for the intent of paying ladyboys for sexual pleasure. You accuse me of that like it makes me a bad person for doing so and for paying whatever is the going rate.

By your way of thinking, if we have a ladyboy approach us and say, I go with you, short time, 500 baht; we should say, NO, I won't pay you 500 baht, I insist on paying you at least 1500. I'm sure they'd glad to take it, while thinking to themselves what's wrong with this stupid falang?

[Lefty]

(Ericthehalfabee @ Nov. 08 2009,17:52) C'mon now - at least he gets to tell us all how he keeps from getting ripped off by those sneaky teenagers for the euivalent of a McDonalds Happy Meal.

If you are referring to me fuckwad, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing and you know god damned well I didn't.

[Naang Faa]

(Lefty @ Nov. 09 2009,19:53) By your way of thinking, if we have a ladyboy approach us and say, I go with you, short time, 500 baht; we should say, NO, I won't pay you 500 baht, I insist on paying you at least 1500. I'm sure they'd glad to take it, while thinking to themselves what's wrong with this stupid falang?

So by your thinking you'd be a fool not to take the offer?
So a girl would be a fool rather than a scammer not to take a guys
millions if the guy freely gives it should the chance arrive..no?


I don't think you saying "there is no reason to pay any Pattaya girl more than
500 baht " out of context..

                                        x

[kahuna]

(Naang Faa @ Nov. 10 2009,02:19) So by your thinking you'd be a fool not to take the offer?
So a girl would be a fool rather than a scammer not to take a guys
millions if the guy freely gives it should the chance arrive..no?

Very good point NF...

I continue to be amazed that most BMs here are interpreting Thai behavior through cultural eyes of the west...

Check your logic...you're judging their behavior with the values of yours...Sorry but in my book that don't work...

Your energy might be put to better use trying to understand exactly what it is they are doing within the constructs
of their own cultural value system...

My feeling is it is based on what they perceive can be achieved/gained through interaction rather than a relationship
based on mutual altruism...In other words, in their mind it ain't a scam and it ain't a lie...

And that doesn't make their behavior either right or wrong...Just what it is...

"Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." William Shakespeare

[f0xxee]

(kahuna @ Nov. 10 2009,03:01) I continue to be amazed that most BMs here are interpreting Thai behavior through cultural eyes of the west...
Check your logic...you're judging their behavior with the values of yours...Sorry but in my book that don't work...

Jesus.... its back and looking for another argument.

Your comment is a sweeping generalization without a foundation in fact: Lets try a more accurate (* and less incendiary) sentence:

"It would appear many BM's are interpreting Thai behavior through the cultural eyes of the west"

See big guy? it's not difficult to be accurate and avoid pissing me off and the many others who do make some effort to "see thai behaviour etc. etc etc."

And please help me out here oh hairy academic, but I have always considered altruism to mean a concious decision to enhance the wellbeing of another without personal gain (and remember here kiddies I am a dum unkultured and uneddycated aussie) so I doubt that altruism is the motivating factor in a consensual business deal. Symbiosis? Where perhaps the selfish needs of both parties are best satisfied by working togther? Sounds good to me.

And lastly the point I have made before Oh guru of big words and things....Who again chooses to ignore facts in the haste to make a point (did you ever work for FOX News?)

Thais Know it is bad to lie, as do westerners. They know it is bad to gossip... as do westerners. They know the rest of the 5 precepts as well as Charlton Heston know the 10 commandments. They know right form wrong. Stop condecending and sounding like a Mormon Missionary.

It would seem to me that people who keep talking about a cultural chasm between west and east want it to exist for reasons of their own perceived superiority, or perhaps because they can't or wont try to get past the fact that although the cultures are different, the motivations for people all over the world remains the same.

[kahuna]

Dear foxxee,

My words are pissing you off?  I don't control your emotions mate...they belong solely
to you...Please don't give anyone else that power...

And if you read a bit closer, you'll see that I didn't say that their behavior was based on
altruism...I said it wasn't...

I stand by what I wrote...It's my opinion...I'm entitled to it...And I can assure you that my
thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with a belief that I am in any way superior to Thais
or to you or anyone else...There is nothing condescending in my belief...Just the opposite...
I'm not judging them, you are...

And I'm not ignoring facts...You haven't presented any facts...You claim to know...But that's
clearly not a fact...If you have any real facts, by all means please give them to us...

I went back and quickly reviewed the eight pages that make up this thread...The only other
BM who is not looking at Thais through western eyes is Naang Faa...I stand by "most"...And
rest assured that is not a judgement of the other BM posters on this thread...I simply think
that they and you are wrong...

Finally, I'm not going to play your sophomoric game...I'm truly sorry I mentioned education, it
wasn't intended the way you are interpreting it...If you're looking for a name calling Boarhog
type of fight, you are gonna have to go elsewhere...

Flame on...

[pacman]

(Naang Faa @ Nov. 10 2009,02:19) I don't think you saying "there is no reason to pay any Pattaya girl more than
500 baht " out of context..

Naang, you type too fast...   I think you missed a couple of words here...

But on the subject of 500 baht short times, it upsets me to see the dire situation of so many girls here...      

I have met several who would have swapped food for sex. That they weren't beauties goes without saying but several of my "dates" hadn't eaten in the past day.

Another local assures me the average bar worker gets by on 1 meal a day. And that is no slap-up feast.

All the negative publicity from LOS over the past year is now coming home to roost. Tourism is down by 2/3, not officially of course, but I am assured by people who should know that this be the case.

500 baht may sound like exploitation in the comfort of our western homes but to a starving bar girl, it means food on the table for weeks. It doesn't cover rent, etc but some here are living 3 & 4 to a room or sleeping behind the bar.

I have always enjoyed Naang's unique perspective on ladyboy matters but all her best intentions cannot match Lefty's 500 baht (or more) when it is being offered to someone who needs it now!!

[gizmo]

So your saying if they're hungry
its ok to give them less?
I cant see your logic pac?

[f0xxee]

Nah Kahuna... I'll pass.

ALTHOUGH: If you perceive Naang Fah as the only one looking at it through Thai eyes I am surprised. And I don't agree. But as you state it's a matter of opinion. I think I see through Thai eyes quite well: I see Thais/Aussies/Inuit as similar but with a different cultural gloss. The drivers (and oh how I hate that wank-word) are similar.
I just like arguing with you... you do give me reason to think Kahuna. As does Jaidee and a few others. And for that reason alone I find your input valuable.
In my opinion of all the various forums on Thailand this one is probably the most eloquent and most thoughtful? I swear it is....

Lastly, I dredged up a new and interesting name. Bugger. it will have to fester in my arsenal awaiting a worthy victim.....

No hard feelings I trust.

JF

[f0xxee]

(pacman @ Nov. 10 2009,06:15) 500 baht may sound like exploitation in the comfort of our western homes but to a starving bar girl, it means food on the table for weeks. It doesn't cover rent, etc but some here are living 3 & 4 to a room or sleeping behind the bar.

I have always enjoyed Naang's unique perspective on ladyboy matters but all her best intentions cannot match Lefty's 500 baht (or more) when it is being offered to someone who needs it now!!

Interesting point Paccie...

As an aside, how often do you invite the girls who come to stay for a meal? Knowing you for the gentleman you are, I am guessing everytime. (For no other reason its intersteing to observe as plate after plate after plate gets delivered to your room.)

And I am also guessing from the numerous photos on this site displaying food, eating food, and dirty dishes that you are not alone in this practice.

And lastly I am guessing that even the most hard core punters in here probably do tip, feed and generally look after their sexual partners even in a small way.

You might argue: "so they buy them dinner... big deal". Well there is no contractual obligation to do so, so that truly is altruism. (For you Kahuna.)

I think in honesty Naang Fah that you are a little too down on all the punters here as exploititive chauvanistic bastards... and I am sure that is not the case for all concerned.

More power to you paccie!

[pacman]

A new & interesting name...    

Can't wait to see which victim gets that dumped on him...      

BTW Foxxee, as much as I enjoy your (and Kahuna's) well thought out arguments, I thought you lost this round when you started arguing the semantics of 'most' versus 'many'.

To me they are both the same same but different...        

[pacman]

(gizmo @ Nov. 10 2009,06:18) So your saying if they're hungry
its ok to give them less?
I cant see your logic pac?

I would never say such a thing...

I had to re-read my post to see what you missed. I think your interpretation is your own.

To recap, while it may be considered poor form to take advantage of a hungry bargirl, I am sure they prefer to get some money than no money.

And I am not walking up to a girl & asking her to come home for 500 baht, this price is being freely offered.

Juri has them queuing up at his door & they all know what he pays. There is no co-ercion here, just a lot of hungry bargirls.

[f0xxee]

Come on now paccie...

Most: nearly all.
Many: Many

Got it?

[pacman]

(f0xxee @ Nov. 10 2009,06:37) As an aside, how often do you invite the girls who come to stay for a meal? Knowing you for the gentleman you are, I am guessing everytime.

Wrong guess, sorry mate...      

I will always offer a girl food if she tells me she is hungry. I don't often take girls for meals these days, not because I don't enjoy their company, it's just gets tiring with the over-ordering, the social ramifications, etc...

In my experience, you really don't want to overdo the altruism, the girls can pick a soft touch from 100 metres & I don't want to find myself the last hope of many/most (oh yeah, I get it now) of the unfortunate girls who haven't had a customer in weeks.

Thanks for the words of encouragement...        (I touched Juri for luck last night )