Crazy Transsexuals

[stogie bear]

Never sure if irony can be heard when typed. I certainly hope so...

To know you is to love you, right?

[stogie bear]

(Naang Faa @ Jan. 26 2008,17:07) nice new avatar

Now it's your turn!

That statuesque girly can be 'sanctimonious' with me any time she likes, by the way!

[stogie bear]

Of course there are more Katoey from lower social classes - there are more lower class people in Thailand...

[newwriter]

(Naang Faa @ Jan. 26 2008,18:07) gogirlygogilry

Better not. I can get crazy too, you know! This is what this post is all about!!!

What goes through my mind?

I am so over-matched it's scary.

[Naang Faa]

(stogie bear @ Jan. 26 2008,18:36)

(Naang Faa @ Jan. 26 2008,17:07) nice new avatar

Now it's your turn!

Awwww,I like my avatar.i think its funny...

x

[rxpharm]

Doug, it is clear that you have pretty strong feelings about the subject - however you are still making assumptions. The statistics you have found are grim, without a doubt. However, you are drawing inferences from them. These statistics alone do not prove anything about the Thai ts population. This is the same argument people use about marijuana users - they will all become cocaine addicts, just look at the statistics! All cocaine addicts used marijuana in the past.

Inferences are just that - assumptions that may or may not be true. Any scientist/sociologist/psychologist etc. would say the same thing. Until an actual study is done, then no one has the facts on what is going on with Thai ts. Naang Faa's accounts about what she experiences with her group are valid too.

[stogie bear]

All statistics mean what you want them to mean and are a totally shite way of forming opinions on anything.

The only truth is what you see for yourself.

[thegame925]

To get back onto the original question.

Those of us who are not psychiatrists or psychoanalysts can only base our views on personal experience or have formed our views based upon that that which we have read.

I have lived with girls and women for varying lengths of time.

I lived with (and was faithful to) a pre-op TS for 9.5 years and lived with (was not always faithful to) a pre-op for 2.5 years.

I have been friends (and sometimes sexually involved) with GGs, with pre- and posts-op TSs of every ethnicity, colour & religion on just about every continent over many decades.

I have had many hundreds of P4P experiences with GGs, and with both with pre- and posts-op TSs, again, of every ethnicity, colour & religion on every continent over many, many, years.

In my humble opinion Transsexuals, whether pre or post op, are, in general, no crazier than, in general, GGs, and (it has taken me a long time to realise this) but I am (ever so slowly) beginning to think that GGs are really no crazier than men (excepting when they are menopausal).

It is my observation that post-ops are often more dissatisfied with their lives than pre-ops, and within the Caucasian homosexual community, €œold queens€ appear to be the most unhappy of the €œtypes€ within their community.

I have reached the conclusion that anyone, of any gender, who is a heavy and long-term drug user, usually has severe personality problems; and as people of all sexes involved as providers in the P4P arena for a long time seem, eventually, to end up on drugs, that might explain the why certain contributors to this Forum hold the belief that TSs are €œcrazy€.

[stogie bear]

In my humble opinion...

I'll go with your 'humble opinion' over ANY statistics any day.

[Guest]

(stogie bear @ Jan. 27 2008,00:51) All statistics mean what you want them to mean and are a totally shite way of forming opinions on anything.

The only truth is what you see for yourself.

Obviously someone who does not understand statistics and probably failed algebra in school.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(rxpharm @ Jan. 22 2008,02:53) Doug, you're talking apples and oranges here.  While it may be possible to compare similar groups, I feel that drawing conclusions to a different group is not the wisest thing to do.

You quote statistics that suicide rates are high among western postop ts, and you generalize this to Thai/Asian ts.  While I know there are some Thai postop ts who commit suicide (and I'm sorry one of your friends was involved), there are no studies to show that they commit suicide at a rate higher than the normal Thai population.

You also generalize erratic behavior that a number of board members have reported about p4p lbs, and your own personal experience to the general population of lbs.

So, really it is your opinion based on limited personal experience and information you are making conclusions about.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but don't try to promote it as fact.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(doug @ Jan. 22 2008,04:01) A report in the UK Guardian Newspaper states:

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend.
The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

...the Report itself states:

Paradoxically, a growing number of post-operative transsexuals are scathing about their medical care. International research suggests that 3-18% of them come to regret switching gender.

Look, I know that SRS might have be a good choice for many girls, but it doesn't mean it's the right choice for EVERYBODY.  The facts show that pretty clearly.

So far, I've backed up everything I've said, and all you guys can do is resort to calling me a douche.

Fine, it wasn't my intention to start a flame war.  All I wanted to point out is that "mental instability", depression, and suicide are BIG problems in the transgendered community worldwide and that SRS is NOT a cure-all for those problems (in fact, I believe in MANY cases, it's a symptom, not a solution).

To quote the Guardian as proof of anything is a bit ridiculous.

To read you railing against SRS when your own sexual fetish is chicks with dicks is a conflict of interest that leaves you without any credibility.

You're against SRS because of your own sexual appetite, not because a few of your own anecdotal expreriences proove anything in your own mind.

Go on posting your longwinded, rainbow coloured rants against SRS. You are simply not convincing.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(doug @ Jan. 21 2008,13:08)

(Naang Faa @ Jan. 21 2008,06:44)

If a girl is ready for it emotionally (meaning she's had counselling and is prepared for the INEVITABLE regrets and "sense of loss")

For gods sake Doug! Where did you get that one from?
                                                                                       
                                                                                            x

Oh, I don't know.  I probably got it from my friend right before she killed herself.  I seem to recall her being quite upset about mutilating herself for the sake of some guy.

Paint your rose-colored picture, if you like--and for all I know, you may be one of the lucky few who are TRULY happy and content--but you and I both know that a large majority of transgendered girls wrestle with serious emotional and mental problems.

Here a quote from Laura's Playground:

The National suicide rate is 3 per 100,000 People. The Transgender Transsexual suicide rate is 31% of our group. Over 50% of Transsexuals will have had at least one suicide attempt by their 20th birthday. Even more self harm themselves daily either by cutting or self mutilation.

Hmmm, I seem to remember Fred saying that self-cutting and transsexualism have nothing in common and that I was being deliberately deceptive by "confusing" the two.  And yet here's a transsexual website putting the two things together as well.

Hmm, deliberately deceptive?  Or speaking an unpleasant truth that YOU don't want to hear?....

Here's another quote from some Seattle public health website:

Both suicide attempts and completed suicides are common in transgendered persons. Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex.

Another form of self-harm in transgendered persons is genital mutilation. This is most common among transsexuals, although cross-dressers have done this as well.

Again, self-cutting shows up when someone is discussing the mental health of ladyboys.  Is that enough for you to admit you were wrong Fred?  I personally know several girls who do this, and evidence of it is easy to pick out at any go-go bar in Thailand.  Do you really think all those cigarette burns and "motorbike scars" are accidental?

Naang Faa, I'd like to point out to you that in my "anti-SRS" post (as you call it), I said that I wasn't against SRS, just against the RUSH to do it without proper counselling about ALL aspects of the surgery.  I also said, that like stomach-stapling, it should be viewed as a "last resort" surgery (not a GOAL) undertaken when necessary to save the patient's life.

This paragraph I quoted states that there is evidence that suicide rates drop (BUT DON'T DISAPPEAR) after the surgery is completed.  Clearly this proves my point  that SRS should be viewed as a life-saving treatment not as a SHORT-CUT (literally) to happiness.

If you are reading something "anti-post-op" into my posts, you are totally mistaken.

SRS done for the WRONG reasons is self-mutilation at it's most extreme (amputation, period).  However, as I said in my post, there are times (like stomach-stapling or an appendectomy) when a body part needs to be removed for the overall health of the patient.  When SRS is done for THIS reason, it's a medical treatment undertaken as part of an effort to save a life.

Perhaps you think I'm just splitting hairs, but I don't think so.  Then end result is the same, of course, but the motivations driving that outcome are completely different.  One approach is healthy, the other is self-destructive.

But with suicide rates that are ridiculously high, you cannot possibly sit there and say that I'm completely off-base when I say that most ladyboys suffer from varying degrees of mental instability (from self-destructive risk-taking and complusive behavior to full-blown depression and self-hate).

Then again, you're the expert in denial, not me .

Transsexuals as a group do have higher suicide rates compared to the general population, but so do many minority groups who face excessive life stress.

They may be more likely to have borderline personality disorder, which can manifest itself via self-cutting. But I'll admit this has never been proven. (You have a fairly simplistic view of what "self-cutting" is and what it implies.)

SRS may not have helped your own friend, who unfortunately chose to end her life.

In reality, these are all separate issues. To weave them all together, quoting "Laura's playground" along the way, in order to denigrate a procedure that others might value, when the "WRONG REASONS" are wrong because they don't fit your own sexual fantasies and prejudices, is silly.

[stogie bear]

A report in the UK Guardian Newspaper states:

Oh, now you've lost me...

[Fred_Nguyen]

(statuesque @ Jan. 21 2008,19:44) I think that strong psychological instability is as common for any woman, trans or not, whos undergoing radical changes in her life or is placed in a unique environment. Female soldiers, pregnant mothers with post-partum depression, or even a young girl with an overbearing mother. It can be profession, family history, culture even. While it is true that theres considerable number of TGs who "behave unconventionally", that is merely a by-product of how the stereotypical world behaves and consequently expects us to behave in return.

This is probably the most reasonable and brilliant statement so far. Nice.