Hormone Premarin

[Groundhog]

(ziggystardust @ May 03 2006,22:33)

Eeeewwww, gross





I guess the question is whether you go natural or GM food to get in touch with your feminine side

[Groundhog]

(ziggystardust @ May 10 2006,07:03) I have yet to find even one decent "study" on estrogen taken by men. I asked a few doctors why not, and they said, "It is not a topic considered desirable for a good doctor to research, and who would pay for something like that?".

You'd think there must be enough 'bad' doctors to complete the research, wouldn't you?

I think there actually is a lot of material out there, though hormone therapy is so controversial that the research is either niche (using lower life forms as subjects) or is underground (e.g., check out steroid.com). Men have to have a minimal level of estrogen in their body, otherwise tissues don't heal properly. This is a problem that bodybuilders have when they overuse Arimidase, which prevents testosterone from aromatizing to estrodial. They can break bones and tear tendons. Two much estrodial though and you get breasts, considered highly undesirable by bodybuilders.

Anyway, what would you want to know ... that it's bad for the 'girls' to take estrogen long run? How bad? I suspect it's not all that damaging given all of the other risks they face. Long run you are bound to have problems when you upset your body's homeostasis, but as Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead anyway (this is certainly true for Keynes, isn't it).

[Guest]

I think it is important to just know what happens and what are the recommendations for MEN in taking estrogen.

If the answer is "Take all you want" that's good info. If it's "Take it 10 years and your dick falls off" that's also good info.

Everything I've read says that creating an imbalance of hormones is not a good thing. All estrogen studies are done on women to create a correct balance. Transsexuals do the exact opposite, to create a totally imbalanced result for men. Clearly the women's studies don't apply here.

Also, there are no transdermal applications in Thailand that I can see. Would that be a better approach for biological men taking estrogen? Likely, but a study would be good to prove it.

Some say premarin is awful. Most Ladyboys take Premarin. Ok, so is that bad or ok for males?

etc, etc

[post-op lover]

I think that Premarin has long been the estrogen of choice for LBs and GGs. I'm sure you can find many complaints, just as you can find many complaints about aspirin. If you've got some comparative study to support a complaint, that might be more meaningful. I don't see a need to rush to judgement just because it's the most popular treatment out there. That would be silly. Instead, it's better to see if there's something that should be better, and find comparative research on that. I've not heard of any comparative research, though.

[Guest]

Despite the urine humor, I think this is getting quite academic. How about moving it to the Academia?

What do you say, Stogie Bear?

Will contribute later.

Roinin

[Guest]

My 2 cents worth from readings:

Premarin is the choice estrogen, because it's the cheapest and most convenient source; but being an oral source, it can be harmful-if taken long term-it gets filter by the liver. In other words, you lose the potency by being absorbed in the wrong organs, and you cause harm to liver by over loading it. A better way to take Premarin, or oral hormones, is to let it dissolve in between your gum, and absorb thru the gum tissues. This is almost like transdermal application patches.

The types of Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), starting with the "best":

-Injection

-Transdermal film/Patch

-Oral

-Cream

Here are some of my sources:

http://sexuality.org/l/transgen/m2f.html

http://www.inhousepharmacy.co.uk/tra...ansgender.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone...herapy_(trans)

http://www.hamiltonlove.com

Enough of my blabbering. This is what you learn, when you have a ladyboy honey and LB friends. I hope someone can use these info, or stir up the forum.

Ronin

[Torurot]

Moved from "News, Views and LADYBOYS!"

[rxpharm]

(ziggystardust @ May 10 2006,20:09) I think it is important to just know what happens and what are the recommendations for MEN in taking estrogen.

If the answer is "Take all you want" that's good info. If it's "Take it 10 years and your dick falls off" that's also good info.

Everything I've read says that creating an imbalance of hormones is not a good thing. All estrogen studies are done on women to create a correct balance. Transsexuals do the exact opposite, to create a totally imbalanced result for men. Clearly the women's studies don't apply here.

Also, there are no transdermal applications in Thailand that I can see. Would that be a better approach for biological men taking estrogen? Likely, but a study would be good to prove it.

Some say premarin is awful. Most Ladyboys take Premarin. Ok, so is that bad or ok for males?

etc, etc

I have a pharmacist friend who is in Chiang Mai. She also happens to be an lb. She told me there is a transdermal estradiol dosage form available in Thailand called "Climera". She says it is available in some of the bigger chain pharmacies such as Fashino's and Pharmachoice. Unfortunately this is quite a bit more expensive than using Premarin. My apologies if I have the names spelled wrong, since I was using Skype. I may not have heard her clearly.

With regard to dosing of female hormones in lbs - if they still maintain their testosterone production - then it is more risky for them to take the female hormones. The doses required to produce and then maintain femininity are higher than required than if they were either castrated (orchidectomy - removal of the testes) or have their SRS. The other option is to chemically supress the testosterone production by using an anti-androgen such as cyproterone (Androcur). If this is done, then doses that are normally give for female hormone replacement can be taken. This would be lower doses required to mimic natural hormone levels in ggs.

Premarin is composed of a number of estrogen/estrogen like compounds. (conjugated estrogens) This FDA article is pretty clear about how this is revelant to determining the activity of Premarin.

FDA Backgrounder on Conjugated Estrogens

With many different estrogens/estrogen compounds, it is hard to determine what is the most active component. So making a generic version has not been possible.

With so many different estrogens (up to 10) as a components of Premarin, it follows that there could more side effects when taking it. The risks increase dramatically when high doses are taken - esp. in the case of preop tgs who are trying to counter the action of testosterone and start the feminization process.

In Thailand and other countries where there is a lack of regulation - there is a common belief that "more is better" so overdosing of female hormones can be rampant. This leads to complications that can become life threatening - such as blood clots, liver failure, etc.

The key to safe hormone usage is monitoring to ensure the levels do not greatly exceed normal female levels and using the minimal dose to achieve that state. This can be facilitated by the use of antiandrogens as previously mentioned or the surgical route.

Research into the use of estrogen by males likely will not happen. Drug companies will do research only where they can see potential profit. It is unlikely that any company will see this as a profit making area for them. If any research occurs it might happen on a small scale in a university setting, independent of a pharmaceutical company.

I have also found an interesting article about collecting pregnant mares' urine to produce Premarin. It is a contrast to the other articles that make it seem the mares are "tortured". The truth is likely inbetween, with some good facillities and some poor facilities.

Pregnant Mares and Estrogens

[Guest]

Rx, can you clarify one thing.

I've read in one place that if you get castrated, then you MUST take HRT for the rest of your life, because you have almost no testosterone production, no estrogen production which is not good.

However, the very nice, Maysa, from Phuket, who got cut, told me she doesn't take any hormones now and was told that was the way to do it by her doctor.

Thanks.

[rxpharm]

(ziggystardust @ May 14 2006,04:21) Rx, can you clarify one thing.

I've read in one place that if you get castrated, then you MUST take HRT for the rest of your life, because you have almost no testosterone production, no estrogen production which is not good.

However, the very nice, Maysa, from Phuket, who got cut, told me she doesn't take any hormones now and was told that was the way to do it by her doctor.

Thanks.

Ziggy, your reading is correct, people who are castrated should have hormone replacement therapy.

Sex hormones not only affect our sexual characteristics, but also can affect things like our lipid metabolism - changing our ratios of LDL and HDL, improving bone strength and density (estrogens), cerebral and vascular effects.

My ex-gf (postop lb) was also told the same thing by her less than knowledgable doctor, and I got her back on track. Thankfully she was not too long without taking her Premarin. If you have a chance to speak with Maysa, please advise her to start her hormones again, Premarin 0.625 mg daily or one Diane daily would be ok.

A couple of articles from Wikpedia are pretty good:

Wikpedia Estradiol

Wikpedia Androgen

[Guest]

What happens if they don't?

I can only guess they are no longer producing testosterone as before (about 50% loss?), they don't produce estrogen much, so they have a lack of both in this case, and whatever side effects that creates.

She seems quite ok with it, but it seems odd from a couple of other things I read.

[rxpharm]

Well, certainly they will be at a much higher risk of osteoporosis. Both androgen and estrogen are important for development and maintenance of bone density.

There are also cerebral effects that lack of either hormones can create - memory becomes poorer, mental acuity can become less.

There are a few studies that show possible increased risk of cardiovascular problems, such as heart attack, possible stroke with lower than normal hormone levels but this has not yet been fully verified.

These are problems that will happen over the long term 20-30 years.

She probably will not notice much in the short term, but longer term problems are likely to surface.

I would suggest that Maysa takes hormones that will maintain levels similar to a genetic woman.

[rxpharm]

(rxpharm @ May 13 2006,22:40) I have a pharmacist friend who is in Chiang Mai. She also happens to be an lb. She told me there is a transdermal estradiol dosage form available in Thailand called "Climera". She says it is available in some of the bigger chain pharmacies such as Fashino's and Pharmachoice.

Ok, have the proper spelling of these pharmacy chains for Climera, the transdermal estradiol patch.

Fasino and Pharma Choice - these are chains in Chiang Mai, my friend is not sure they are in Bangkok.

[Road Runner]

Hello Gent's,

I may have misunderstood  -  but I believe the latest practice when SRS is performed is that only one of the testes is removed and the other is pushed back up inside the abdomen.
This then provides a natural source of testosterone.

RR.

[rxpharm]

(Road Runner @ May 23 2006,03:18) Hello Gent's,

I may have misunderstood - but I believe the latest practice when SRS is performed is that only one of the testes is removed and the other is pushed back up inside the abdomen.
This then provides a natural source of testosterone.

RR.

Hi RR,

This would be a very interesting procedure. I have read about a specific case where a doctor undergoing SRS insisted on having her testes (both) put back into the inguinal area. Her concern was having to take hormones for long term, and also for her sexual drive.

I have not read anything that indicates this is becoming a widely practiced procedure. It would provide hormones for the postop MTF, however it would be counter to the effect of feminization most want to achieve.

If you happen to find the article, link, etc. I would appreciate a PM for it.