How do LBs view their male genitalia?

[Guest]

we are all born of male and female...so we all contain both genders...just 1 pair of sex chromosomes determines our physical gender
there are some who prefer to strongly define themselves, others enjoy being able to experience both sides, and yet many others in between these extremes...
the western mind likes its definitions, its labels.. and experiences confusion and fear when someone doesn't fit in
the east/buddha mentality is much more accepting of what is.... realising that all of life is in transition..

so the bottom line...each person must choose what's best, what's most natural for them

its all good..

[Guest]

As has been eloquently noted, it's a spectrum. And it's a grab-bag of personal, sociocultural and other self-identity issues.

I have a friend who works as a Tgirl escort here in Australia. In her role as an escort, she is versatile. It's what clients want and expect. But like almost all working girls, she is in an entirely a different persona/headspace when working and she is essentially imagining that she has a clit and it is being sucked/licked. She wants to go post-op, but needs her 'bits' for income purposes. In her private relationships, she prefers to leave her knickers on, and to essentially pretend that her little girlfriend isn't there. Masturbation, for example, on her own and when she needs release, is a really conflicted issue for her.

I have another friend who wouldn't lose her dick for quids. She much prefers topping.

That's why there is the term non-op for Tgirls who are perfectly comfortable with having male genitalia and identifying as female. They are in the minority, but as have been mentioned, do exist. As has already been noted, the percentage of people who have the operation and are disapointed is significant (circa 7% last study I read). But again to repeat the obvious, that the relationship between a lady and her genitals is entirely individuated. What is important, of course, is to note that this should not be a political issue within the TG community - horses for courses.

Also, not to be obnoxious as the newbie, but is the term 'ladyboy' really appropriate in this one little academic corner of this site? Sorry this has been raised before, but it is regarded by most academics in the west as demeaning. It includes and infers the term 'boy' which most Tgirls don't want to be identified as. I know it's culturally pervasive in Asia, but I'm just throwing that out there.

[liisawinkler]

i have no idea where you got the notion that there are fewer NON-OP tgirls these days...

BRazilian tgirls very much love their genitalia....their male genitalia that is....they love to use it (if it's functional) or the sight of it (if it's just an appendage for peeing as a result of massive hormone usage) ...

it's very much of a question of how you identify yourself in the massive Tgirl world or how your job description (escorting) defines you

[liisawinkler]

no paladin1974 it wasnt directed at you...my last post....it was for the general knowledge of the forum and for those who don't have any know-how of the more academic things...

please post a comment on my blog without an email so i can approve it and it shows on my website...highly appreciated

hugs and kisses sexy biatch

[Guest]

(liisawinkler @ Jul. 03 2009,16:34) no paladin1974 it wasnt directed at you...my last post....it was for the general knowledge of the forum and for those who don't have any know-how of the more academic things...

please post a comment on my blog without an email so i can approve it and it shows on my website...highly appreciated

hugs and kisses sexy biatch

Good-o. Being a newbie here, I'm conscious of my ability to be misinterpreted.

Completely OT, but you gotta love a girl who reads Murakami.

"hugs and kisses sexy biatch"

So the news is out about me, eh?

To bring this back on topic, anyone have interesting references to studies on this? I know some good work is being done out of Hong Kong on both the Thai and PI Tgirl communities.

[jimslim]

(laputanegra @ Jun. 13 2009,04:55)  i want to be a woman with a glamorous cock  

Brilliant

[manarak]

is the term 'ladyboy' really appropriate in this one little academic corner of this site? Sorry this has been raised before, but it is regarded by most academics in the west as demeaning

What's really important, is how the girls like to call themselves.
Ladyboys don't like to be called "kathoeys".

"western academics" are a whipped bunch which has been far too much influenced by abolitionist feminists.
Feminazis, as they are called by some.


If academics pretend something is "deameaning" it is often because themselves they don't like the word.

I understand why - a "ladyboy" is a graspable concept. A girl with a cock.

But they like to use cold technical terms, like "persons with uncertain transgender identity" or some other bullshit.
It allows them to talk about them without ever "touching" their ideas or "being touched" by their theories. It keeps the ladyboys at a distance.

Who is turned on by "persons with uncertain transgender identity" ??


Plus, in the west, a lot of the "trangendered" give in to their natural pulsions after 20, 30 or 40 years of repressing these feelings, so a lot of transgendered over here are older persons.
The younger ones are often nutcases, and doctors often want to assign them a gender, and "transgender disorder" is still seen as some kind of disease or defect.
They then proceed with telling everyone how the "patient" will feel better after an operation...

That's all a courtesy of our christian heritage.

The western world is not ready for ladyboys, not even for the word.

[kahuna]

I read that and bit my tongue...

Very happy you didn't bite yours...

[Lefty]

(laputanegra @ Jun. 13 2009,04:55)  i want to be a woman with a glamorous cock  

what do you mean you want to be? you are already are a woman with a glamorous cock my dear.

[Guest]

LOL! Hey - like I said, Im just throwing that out there. I agree 1000% with your first line. Terminology is about respect. That's actually at the core of my question. And if someone self-identifies as a 'ladyboy' then that's what they should be addressed as.

Note though that you acknowledge that it is possible to have demeaning social labels, and that, in fact, is where I was going with a fairly innocent question.

No need for anyone to bite their tongue with me. If you don't like what I say, by all means go for it. As one of those dreadful academics, I don't at all have a problem being debated with or, indeed occasionally whipped (by feminists, ladyboys, Tgirls, or preferably all three at once).

I agree that Tgirls face challenges in the west unlike in LOS, which is both more enlightened and less enlightened around the issue in some ways.

And just to clarify, the move against the term 'ladyboy' has come from within the Thai/Pinay Tgirl community itself - and that is why the use has been questioned within academia, as the west is where most such studies are being undertaken. Yes, we do tend to be careful with words, but not in the way you describe, more as a matter of respect than distancing. With certain kinds of research, notably around social research, ethnography etc it's actually fairly important to be both sympathetic and engaged with the community you're helping.

By the same token, there are those within academia who advocate for the reclamation of the term 'ladyboy' in the same way that 'queer' and 'gay' have been reclaimed by those communities to go from something demeaning to something empowering.

Hey, like you, I'm happy to call a gal whatever she prefers - be it ladyboy, Tgirl or whatever. And I'm, of course, not trying to impose my own worldview on anyone, Just seeing if the matter had come up in this particular corner of the forums before.

You say younger Tgirls in the west wanting to transition are 'likely to be nutcases'? Why? What makes them different from a young Tgirl elsewhere wanting to transition?

Not to make a leap - but seeing as you are aggregating us into one whole profession with one set 'whipped' view on life - I do wonder if you have problem with Academia in general, which, let's face it, is about as silly as having a problem with plummers or bus drivers or any other given occupational category. And doubly odd in this particular 'Academia' forum.

You're certainly right about Tgirls often transitioning later here in the west, although I've met some exceptions. Not so sure it's all down to christianity, though, as it is to homophobia and other sociocutural factors in general. Look at the extremely Catholic PI for an example of a Xian country with a significant Tgirl population.

To help 'make the world ready' for Tgirls, surely a part of that is to find ways of representing them in ways that are normalising and respectful, eh? Really, that's what a lot of the work being done is about.

To make one point EXTREMEY clear, academia is the one bastion of places actively advocating that this is NOT a sexual or mental disorder. Were it not for academics researching this stuff, the DSM (which is the standard manual used by the medical community to 'list' what are considered mental disorders and not) might still indeed be treating this as a disorder. It does not, and has not done so for decades. Gender Identity Disorder (the current term) does NOT refer to Transgender people who are comfortable with their gender, whose gender does not directly cause inner frustration or impair their functioning.

Actually, part of the role of academics in the field is to educate the medical community on how to best handle Tgirl patients. So I guess we may be a tad useful there also.

[manarak]

hehe Paladin, I didn't mean to offend you - sorry if I did.

I wrote a sharp post because everything we hear and see in the media about Tgirls/Ladyboys/Shemales etc. is just sickening.

No need for anyone to bite their tongue with me. If you don't like what I say, by all means go for it. As one of those dreadful academics, I don't at all have a problem being debated with or, indeed occasionally whipped (by feminists, ladyboys, Tgirls, or preferably all three at once).

Ah, no problem, there are always exceptions to the rule!
"Whipped" means people who accept abuse by women, or who go too much out of their way to please them (i.e. not contradicting them, watch their movies, don't go drink beer with their buddies, take on a lot of household chores, etc.) - because SHE GOT THE PUSSY.

Not to make a leap - but seeing as you are aggregating us into one whole profession with one set 'whipped' view on life - I do wonder if you have problem with Academia in general, which, let's face it, is about as silly as having a problem with plummers or bus drivers or any other given occupational category. And doubly odd in this particular 'Academia' forum.

Criticism accepted. It was just a reaction to how "transgender" people are often aggregated too.

the move against the term 'ladyboy' has come from within the Thai/Pinay Tgirl community itself

Can you really put Thais and Pinay into one pot?
I wouldn't be surprised if the Pinays are against the term. None of the Thai ladyboys I know ever said something against it - if any doubts remain, you have to hear their soft voice say "I'm a Leddybooooy".

You say younger Tgirls in the west wanting to transition are 'likely to be nutcases'? Why? What makes them different from a young Tgirl elsewhere wanting to transition?

...

You're certainly right about Tgirls often transitioning later here in the west, although I've met some exceptions. Not so sure it's all down to christianity, though, as it is to homophobia and other sociocutural factors in general. Look at the extremely Catholic PI for an example of a Xian country with a significant Tgirl population.

I never said anything about Tgirls wanting to transition...
I just said "younger transgender people".
Transitioning is for me the process of changing status from A to B.
The very fact that you seem to equate the status of being trangender (i.e. is a static state in my opinion) with the status of transitioning (i.e. dynamic state, in the change from one to another) is revealing - think about what it implies, please.
In short, in implies that there are 2 genders, and everyone has to chose one.

I said that many younger transgender in Europe are nutcases, because only the most strong "disorders" get the attention of the parents and doctors.

In Thailand a child usually develops a wish for becoming a ladyboy at the age of 6 to 10 years of age (from what ladyboys told me). Their parents will make their first years difficult, and this tests their willpower. What also tests the little ladyboys willpower is that many get routinely raped by adult men and have to take it up the ass from the age of 12-13.
But at the end, the parents will accept the choice of their son, in a buddhist-fatalist way.
The ladyboy phenomenon is well known in Thailand, and the parents will not think something is WRONG with their son's head, and there won't be any visits to the nut doc to therapy something that's is not considered WRONG or a "disorder" in the first place. It is still a social disappointment for the parents, but things are the way they are, and maybe bad spirits were involved...

Coming back to Europe, social judeo-christian pressure (note how this is larger than christianity - and it doesn't apply to Pinays, since they don't have 1000 years of judeo-christian heritage) will keep 80% of transgender-minded people away from revealing their wishes to others.
If they could just come out at the same age of 6 to 10 years of age like in Thailand, Europe would have the most attractive Tgirls in the world.

But no...

First, it is well known that people are allowed to make decisions for themselves only if they are older than 18.

Then a lot of this transgenderism has to do with sexual preferences and phantasies. What will western parents do if a 9 year old explains his dream is to have his ass rammed by the biggest available cock?
All of us with western christian education know that sex is bad and dirty, and should only take place between a man and a woman over 18 that are married, and only with the aim to procreate...

Some fag-hating parents will feel the urge to kill their child right away, while others will think that something is wrong is the child's head (best case in the west) and send the child to the nut doc.

The nut doc's business model is to spend as many therapy hours as possible with the child, and parents want to do the maximum for their child to be "normal" - so there isn't really a chance for a quick solution here.


Imagine what the medical community would say if the doc just said "Well, it seems you like to take it up the ass, nothing wrong with that, we'll just have a session or two to make sure, and then I'll prescribe some hormones and muscle inhibitors to make you look more sexy. When you are 15 or 16, ask them for some boobs as a birthday gift, and at 18 or later you can then chose if you want to keep your tool or not."


To become an early transgender in Europe, a child does not only need to have very strong willpower very early, but it also needs very openminded parents as well as a competent doctor.
This combination is very rare, therefore there are much more closeted transgender people who never make their coming out "in time".

And then come the other difficulties.
What if the child expresses the wish to keep a functional penis instead of rejecting it as "a dirty appendage which they wish to get rid of"?
...

To help 'make the world ready' for Tgirls, surely a part of that is to find ways of representing them in ways that are normalising and respectful, eh? Really, that's what a lot of the work being done is about.

What I like about the word "normal" is that it has a mathematical meaning, which I always prefer over others: "normal" is anything that is similar to what at least 66% of the population do or think.

I don't know if this work has real chances to be successful.
Gays are more accepted than Tgirls, probably because it is easy to dissociate from them. Gays like each other, they like to fuck together, take it up the ass and that's it - gay is an easily grasped concept.
What's disturbing about Tgirls, is that they attract heterosexuals and represent a danger for women who could lose their men to Tgirls.
Then some transgendered like to be 100% women while others prefer to keep their penis and remain passive, while others also like to be active...
Again, sexuality plays a big role, and the general rejection of such "perversions" and the complexity of the Tgirl question will not help the acceptance.
Being gay is still considered to be a "disorder" of some kind and there are plents of gay-haters inspite it is easy to understand.
So... what are the chances of Tgirls to be understood by a society, of which by definition 50% have an IQ below 100?

To make one point EXTREMEY clear, academia is the one bastion of places actively advocating that this is NOT a sexual or mental disorder. Were it not for academics researching this stuff, the DSM (which is the standard manual used by the medical community to 'list' what are considered mental disorders and not) might still indeed be treating this as a disorder. It does not, and has not done so for decades. Gender Identity Disorder (the current term) does NOT refer to Transgender people who are comfortable with their gender, whose gender does not directly cause inner frustration or impair their functioning.

Actually, part of the role of academics in the field is to educate the medical community on how to best handle Tgirl patients. So I guess we may be a tad useful there also.

Good points here.

I'm totally with you on what you say, but inspite doctors could say the right thing, I'm doubtful that this really helps the little Tgirls.

Imagine there were little european Tgirls in Europe... as much as in Thailand, like... I dunno... 3% of the male population (taking the figure out of my ass).

Would they even survive school?


I think if I had such a child, I would seriously consider moving to a tolerant place.

[Guest]

Hey Manarak!

Thanks heaps for the thoughtful reply. I think we're in danger of taking the thread entirely OT, so am going to hold off further in this particular thread. Maybe there's enough meat for a new 'un, maybe not. But please don't take my brief reply as being offended. I'm absolutely not. On the contrary, I gotta say I enjoy chatting with you.

Plus, you pulled me up on one really important point. You ask "Can you really put Thais and Pinay into one pot?"

The answer is no. You're right - the pinay community seems to be more active on this issue than the Thai one. The problem with generalisations is that they're almost always libelous

You're also quite right to underline the point about transitioning. I responded to the transitioning issue because you mentioned "Plus, in the west, a lot of the "trangendered" give in to their natural pulsions after 20, 30 or 40 years of repressing these feelings, so a lot of transgendered over here are older persons" - and I inferred that you were talking about people in the west often transitioning a little later than in Asia as opposed to identifying as TG a little later. Of course, you're correct that to conflate transitioning with gender identity is incorrect.

One point that I AM going to have to take exception to is when you say "If they could just come out at the same age of 6 to 10 years of age like in Thailand, Europe would have the most attractive Tgirls in the world. " I dunno. I have to say that lovely brown skin is a huge turn on for me

Nice to meet you! I reckon we'd have an interesting chat over a beer or three

[manarak]

One point that I AM going to have to take exception to is when you say "If they could just come out at the same age of 6 to 10 years of age like in Thailand, Europe would have the most attractive Tgirls in the world. " I dunno. I have to say that lovely brown skin is a huge turn on for me

Nice to meet you! I reckon we'd have an interesting chat over a beer or three

Point granted!

And I'm yours anytime for a beer or two or more for discussion while having a LB on my lap :-) or two..

Actually not anytime.
I will be in the LOS between July 13th and August 2nd.

Meet you there?

[Guest]

(manarak @ Jul. 05 2009,22:18) Point granted!

And I'm yours anytime for a beer or two or more for discussion while having a LB on my lap :-) or two..

Actually not anytime.
I will be in the LOS between July 13th and August 2nd.

Meet you there?

You're a bloody cruel man.

I wish.

A friend offered me to join her in BKK at that time as she has ended up with a hotel room to herself for five days.

And I'm stuck here at work until at least November.

Jealous as all hell