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  • #16
    If You Support Universal Health, You Must be an America Hater
    The Danes Do It Better
    http://counterpunch.org/piety09142009.html
    By M. G. PIETY September 14, 2009

    Throughout the three years I lived in Canada, and the eight years I lived in Denmark, I would periodically return to the U.S. to see family and friends. I would regale my American acquaintances with stories of what it was like to live in a land with little to no poverty, absurdly cheap to outright free higher education, a generous minimum wage and free government healthcare. I was surprised and even hurt to find that instead of inspiring my listeners to lobby for such things themselves, I was branded an €œAmerica hater.€ My hope that we might bring the quality of life indicators in the U.S. up to, or at least approaching, those of every other economically developed nation was viewed not, as I had conceived it myself, as an expression of fervent patriotism, but as outright treachery. How dare I say that anyone anywhere in the world was actually living better than people in the U.S!

    Everyone knows there are lies, damn lies and statistics, so why would any intelligent American give credence to fantastical claims about such abstract and esoteric things as life expectancy, infant mortality, rates of disease, obesity and malnutrition? And how can you be malnourished anyway if you€™re obese? Clearly these statistics are just part of a leftist conspiracy to make us feel stupid for believing what everyone knows is the God€™s honest truth€“that the U.S. is the greatest country in the world, and that no people on earth live better than we do!

    I am beginning to wonder, actually, whether the people who are opposed to a government option in the healthcare debate might not be right. That is, I am coming to view it as irrelevant to the debate that my experience of the Canadian and Danish systems was very positive, far more positive, actually, than has been my experience of the American system since I moved back to the U.S. in 1998. I saw physicians in Canada and Denmark for bladder infections, colds, sinus infections, acne, toxoplasmosis, migraines and suspected melanoma. I could always get an appointment within a few days of calling. Never did I wait more than twenty minutes to see the doctor and usually the wait was less than ten. I did have one bad experience in Denmark. I went to a doctor for acne and was told pointedly that I did not suffer from acne and that I should not be wasting the doctor€™s time. But then I just went to another doctor who was very sympathetic and who prescribed a topical antibiotic€“all without paying a dime.

    My best experience with the Danish system was the treatment I received for migraines. I was diagnosed with migraines by a friend who was a physician and who very kindly wrote me a prescription for some new medicine, Imitrex (Imigran in Denmark), which he said was very effective. I was initially put out when I had the prescription filled and learned that my little 100mg pills were approximately $5 each. Five dollars a pill, I thought, that€™s outrageous! It was only later when I ran out of the medicine in the U.S. and found out that it would cost me $100 for a 100mg dose that I came to appreciate how reasonable was the $5 price. I asked my friend, when I returned to Denmark, why there was such a huge discrepancy in the price of the Drug in the U.S. versus the drug in Denmark. The Danish government, he explained to me, negotiated with the pharmaceutical companies to buy drugs in bulk at very low prices, then on top of that, the government subsidized 75% of the cost so that the public paid only 25% of what the government had paid. We both quickly did the math and realized that the Danish government was paying Glaxo Smith Kline $20 for a 100mg dose of Imitrex. But if the Danish government could get it for $20, why did Americans have to pay $100 for it? Of course most Americans who take Imitrex don€™t really pay $100 for it, not directly anyway; their insurance companies pay $100 for it. That€™s why, as I learned to my distress when I moved back to the U.S., my insurance company would not cover more than six doses per month of Imitrex, Maxalt, or Zomig, or any other of the new migraine drugs. If I needed more than six doses (as I sometimes do), I was on my own.

    Of course it would be easier for U.S. insurance companies simply to negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies the way the Danish government does to get drugs at a more reasonable price€“but then it would be harder for them to charge such high premiums! Or perhaps it is just that the drug companies know that Americans are blithering idiots whom they can easily milk for five times the cost of what they feel is sufficient to justify the sale of the same medicine to Danes if they can convince us that by paying more we are avoiding the taint of socialism. No matter that the Danish money goes into the same capitalist coffers as our American money. We won€™t see the implications of this because we are just irredeemably stupid.

    If you want proof of Americans€™ stupidity just listen to the talk in the U.S. about how government healthcare would limit people€™s choices. My experience has been precisely the opposite. It€™s private health insurance that is designed to make a profit off people€™s illnesses that limits their choices. That€™s how these companies make a profit, actually€“by limiting people€™s choices. How much money could they make if they covered every visit to the doctor, every medicine or treatment you needed and made sure you were fully and completely taken care of? No, they make their money by cutting corners on your care. We€™d understand that if we weren€™t butt stupid. My doctor in Denmark could prescribe for me as many doses of Imitrex per month as I needed, and I could afford to pay for as many doses as he prescribed, whereas my doctor in the U.S. bemoans that her patients cannot get more than six doses per month. She has one patient, she explained, who got 12 to 15 migraines a month. I know of another woman, the relative of an American friend, who cannot get any migraine medicine at all. Her insurance company won€™t cover it because she had already been diagnosed with migraines before she switched to her present insurance. That is, her migraines are a €œpreexisting condition.€ So now not only do Americans face the specter of losing their jobs and thus their health insurance, but they actually fear having to switch theirjob and lose coverage for €œpre-existing conditions.€ Even if the new job is a step up, they might not be able to afford to take it if they have any pre-existing conditions. Now that€™s good for our free market in talent isn€™t it?

    In Philadelphia, I used to have these really long waits in my gynecologist€™s office. I waited almost two hours once. I don€™t go to that gynecologist anymore. It wasn€™t my choice though. The cost of malpractice insurance in Pennsylvania drove the good doctor into early retirement. When I went back to my primary care physician for a referral to a new gynecologist, she just threw up her hands. Everyone was leaving PA, she told me, because of the cost of malpractice insurance. She did know of one doctor who was very good and who might be willing to take me on as a new patient. €œShe doesn€™t take insurance though,€ my doctor explained apologetically. So even though I am fully insured by my university employer, I have to pay through the nose for my annual gynecology exams. And no, I can€™t get reimbursed because the cost doesn€™t exceed my €œout-of-network deductible.€ And I have to drive to New Jersey for my exams, because this doctor too has now left PA.

    Oh how I long for the days when if I did not choose my own physician, the Danish government would simply appoint one for me within a four block radius of my residence, when I never waited more than a few minutes for first-class care, never paid even a small €œco-pay€ for it and when I could get as much medicine as my doctor felt I needed at a price I could afford even when I was still a student. Americans don€™t want to hear these stories though. I€™ve had people become so angry with me when I explained how positive was my experience of two different government run healthcare systems that I actually feared they might spit on me. In a way, I don€™t blame them. Hearing how the rest of the economically developed world lives is, for Americans, like hearing that everyone else is riding around in shiny new cars while we are having to make do with our broken-down bicycles. This, coupled with the knowledge that the U.S. is the wealthiest country, per capita, in the world€“well, it€™s just too much to handle. Smoke begins to come out of people€™s ears like the robot in €œLost in Space.€ €œCan€™t compute, can€™t compute€ our little underdeveloped intellects scream until we begin to fear that our brains might actually explode. And they probably would explode if information about how other country€™s health care systems work actually begins to filter through the Neanderthal-like layers of ignorance, prejudice and chauvinism that constitute the American skull.

    Yes, it€™s true. I have become an America hater. When I lived in Denmark, I used to long nostalgically for the open-minded, socially egalitarian culture of my forefathers. I felt a deep connection to the country where my ancestors had come before it even was a country. It actually took being back here to turn me off of it. I think we Americans have to look the facts squarely in the face and admit that we are hopeless losers. No matter that other countries€™ governments can provide their citizens with quality health care€“we will not be able to do it. Someone in the halls of power would figure out a way to siphon off all the money for him or herself so that we would be left with a system that is just as bad as the one we have to endure now. No matter that other peoples would not accept such a system from their governments€“we would accept it. We would accept it because we will accept anything from the government. Poul Schlüter had to resign as prime minister of Denmark in 1993 after it was revealed that someone in his administration had conspired to keep political refuges from bringing their families to Denmark, as Danish immigration law clearly stated they could. Schlüter wasn€™t even directly involved, but it happened on his watch. Someone in his government had broken the rules. Danes don€™t like it when their politicians break the rules€“so Schlüter was forced to resign.

    Americans don€™t mind when politicians break the rules though. We€™ll accept election fraud, torture, the violations of our civil rights. A president, or other elected official, can even tell outright lies to trick us into a war that by conservative estimates has killed tens of thousands of completely innocent people, not only without losing office, but without even losing face!

    Yes, we€™d accept a completely dysfunctional system of government-run healthcare. We€™d accept it and with characteristic fatalism tell ourselves that, after all, that was all one could expect from a government-run system. No matter that other governments can run such systems effectively€“we would not be able to do it €¦ because we are complete losers!

    Look at what we have already accepted: hours-long waits at the doctor€™s office, insurance companies telling us they will not cover our €œpre-existing conditions€ and will allow us only so much medicine, even for conditions that are covered. No matter that it wasn€™t always this bad. We€™ve accepted a long, and apparently inexorable, diminution in the quality of healthcare in the U.S. It doesn€™t matter that, for example, the Canadian system and the Danish system are far superior to the system we have now in the U.S.€“even for the fully insured. We are going to hell in a hand basket and we know it. Things can only get worse. Any change, our experience of the last twenty-five years tells us, can only be for the worse, so we resist change. We know things can only get worse because we know, on some level, that the entire rest of the economically developed world left us in the dust long ago. Mention the French, high-speed trains and see what kind of reaction you get out of people. It might be wise, however, to check for the location of the nearest exit before you mention that they can reach speeds of almost 200mph miles per hour and get you from Paris to Frankfurt in four hours (Amtrak would take about 14 hours to go the equivalent distance).

    M.G. Piety teaches philosophy at Drexel University. She can be reached at: [email protected]

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    • #17
      I hope the Death Panels don't kill JaiDee
      No honey, no money!!

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      • #18
        Wonder what would happen if Palin was chairing the panel and knew about JD ? ? ?
        "Snick, You Sperm Too Much" - Anon

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        • #19
          Ive always had a really bad opinion regarding the NHS in the Uk ... that was untill I needed key hole surgery to my shoulder in 2 places.

            I paid £500 for the tests, x-rays etc privately then waited 3 months on the NHS and had a fully successful operation. A year on I have full movement and can do all the things I enjoy again..

          The Hospital is closing, despite massive protests, for housing   ....  pushing the next nearest Hospital into mass over load... I was lucky to get that treatment done when I did....

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          • #20
            It's depressing & distressing to see the level that this has descended to here in the States. My 80+/y.o. mother is scared that the government may euthanise her if she gets sick & this bill passes!
            She watches these batshit yokels on the tube & is completely confused now.

            Obama's people let this get out of hand instead of explaining this is like Medicare or Social Security, etc... Instead they allowed terms like "Public Option" & "Single payer" to confuse the public until the ideologues distilled it down to "Death panels" & "socialism", terms that evoke an emotional response in the hoi polloi. Badly handled... he better improve his learning curve about Afghanistan etc., or he could end up like Jimmy Carter.

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            • #21
              (El_hefe @ Sep. 16 2009,12:52) Badly handled... he better improve his learning curve about Afghanistan etc., or he could end up like Jimmy Carter.
              Sad but true...
              Despite the high cost of living, it continues to be popular.

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              • #22
                I have private here in the uk and recently had to get a skin cancer cut out. My surgeon wanted to do it at the local NHS hospital. All the people there were fantastic and could not have been done better had it been done in a private hospital (plus a load of hot Philapino nurses when I came out from the operating room ).

                It's nice to have both. If I really need something done in a hurry I can get it done on my private insurence and pay a £200 excess. Or if I'm not in a hurry I can get it done for free on the NHS. Average waiting time here in London in an A&E (emergency room) is about 4 hours, average wait to see my NHS GP is about 8 days. As KL said the NHS may not be perfect but thank god it's there (and thank god for the boat load of cute asian nurses they employ).
                Beer Baron

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                • #23
                  (pacman @ Sep. 16 2009,18:44)
                  (El_hefe @ Sep. 16 2009,12:52) Badly handled... he better improve his learning curve about Afghanistan etc., or he could end up like Jimmy Carter.
                  Sad but true...        
                  I like Obama, I think he's a great guy and means well and I supported him in 2008; put up next to Mccain and that retard from Alaska there was no comparison.


                    However.....he has taken on too much for ANY one person to handle...I wish he never even attempted to deal with health care reforms as it is taking him away from everything else and we are getting in deeper and deeper in Afghanistan, a war we can't ''win''.....  someone please define victory there!!  you can't do it...

                     It can be said that he is turning around the economy, however.... something you will never see on FOX news....at least in the short run.  and if he is going to get blamed for all the bad shit then he should get credit for the Dow heading up towards 10K and housing sales coming back to life.

                   Right now [and of course it's very early] he does indeed look like a one-termer.
                  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Jai Dee, You don't have to tell me about Blue Cross insurance premiums ($760/month for $1500 deductible) and being self employed. But the good news is that Blue Cross adjusts the surgeon's and anesthesiologist's charges down to a predetermined rate as long as they are providers for Blue Cross. He won't get $15,000, it will be more like $1100-2000, maybe . The anesthesiologist will be about $300-350/hour. The out patient center will get more than them. MRI' usually comes in at $650-800 once they are reduced by Blue Cross.

                    The problem is that Blue Cross won't give you a figure before hand when you call them. Just make sure that the surgical center, MRI office, and the MD's are all on the Blue Cross Provider list and you will be okay and just have to pick up the 20% after your $1000 dectuctible. The initial exam with the surgeon and the MRI should take care of that. Your costs probably won't get to the $5,000 out of pocket cap. This is the advantage of having Blue Cross, most MD's are providers so whether you go to the best or the worst surgeon it costs you the same. So pick the best in town. It's the hospital charges that are so crazy.

                    I worked in the medical field for 30 years so I have some background in this. As for getting it done in Thailand, all I can say is it's difficult enough to get it done right in the USA much less in Thailand. I have seen plenty of shoulder surgeries with poor results.

                    Charges for medical treatments seem to have gone up in the last few years in Thailand. I noticed the charges for lab work at the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital were the same as in the USA after Blue Cross reduced them. But hospital charges are still reasonable fortunately.

                    Best of luck and wishing you a speedy recovery.

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                    • #25
                      Thank you, and I did decide to do it here after all.  

                         Bumrungrad would have been a hassle, and despite what a lot of travellers may think I could never imagine being stuck in a  BKK hotel recovering from something like this for a few weeks, I'd much prefer to have my own sofa and big screen TV, US channels ....... and FOOTBALL!!

                          Yes,  deductible was met with MRI and initial DR visits.... and yes, all 3 places involved are  Anthem-Blue Cross providers so it keeps the costs down a bit;  but my agent tells me it will still be close to 5K all told.  Good news [if there is any] is that my company can pay for this, same as they pay the $8400 a year in premiums, so it won't come from personal income. Bad news is that I am the company!  

                         thanks for the tips, it sounds like we have the exact same coverage.
                      Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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                      • #26
                        Good luck, and a quick recovery.
                        "Snick, You Sperm Too Much" - Anon

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                        • #27
                          At one time I weighed 499 pounds. I had gastric bypass in 2001. The costs were over $45,000.00. Then I had plastic surgery to remove excell skin and that was $15,000. Two surgeries costing $60,000.00. I paid $120.00.
                          TEXASMAC

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                          • #28
                                          WOW!!

                            It's true, everything IS bigger in Texas...      
                            Despite the high cost of living, it continues to be popular.

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                            • #29
                              I am sure it is easy for the Democrats and Republicans to sit across the aisle from one another and point fingers...kind of like we do sometimes on this forum. However, the health care debate needs to be resolved. Forcing everyone to pay mandatory premiums is just ridiculous. Funding should come from something more fundamental like increased income tax or a national sales tax or another 5 cents on the gasoline tax...

                              I've been self-employed before and when Blue Shield premiums doubled when I turned 50 to almost $12,000 a year, I dumped my insurance and went without for a while. Now I am employed and pay a small amount out of my paycheck every 2 weeks.

                              There is no reason to mess with the current system, albeit the insurance companies exercise considerable leverage over everything. All that is needed is a government paid-for alternative for those without insurance. I honestly don't understand all the rhetoric that abounds from both sides of the aisle. It's absurd.

                              Maybe if we locked Congress in until this is resolved...feed them bread and water...until they come to their senses.

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                              • #30
                                (TEXASMAC @ Sep. 18 2009,09:51) At one time I weighed 499 pounds. I had gastric bypass in 2001. The costs were over $45,000.00. Then I had plastic surgery to remove excell skin and that was $15,000. Two surgeries costing $60,000.00. I paid $120.00.
                                if you live in Texas or anywhere in America, how'd you pull this off, welfare?

                                   and I agree with Chef [first time ever], health care doesn't need to be fixed; although the insurance companies need to be reeled in, tort reforms put in place so Docs don't get sued as much and FOR so much, and the drug companies forced to lower their costs.

                                      I get a cream for oily skin once a month, it's a drying cream used mostly by teenagers with acne but also for adults with oil problems like mine; because it needs a doctors prescription a 2-ounce tube costs 75 bucks, and I pay 10.  But Anthem pays 65 of that; we wonder why health costs are so high when a 2-ounce cream costs 75 bucks, with essentially the same ingredients as a 2-ounce tube of Clearisil which costs 8 bucks?

                                 I don't see US health care being fixed in my lifetime.
                                Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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