Obama Wins! Good news or not?

[jaymee]

I was a little emotional in my comments sorry there guys.

I still want to quote this though.. where In Road to Serfdom, Friedrich Hayek quotes Alexis de Tocqueville: "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude."

Socialism sounds extremely taboo - yes - who can forget Hitler. But I'm definitely not alluding that Obama is a probably "hitler" or "kim jong II".

To extrapolate my point, what I feel is that the shackles of servitude today are hugely insiduous forms transcending the old - whips, concentration camps and secret police are no longer required.

The chains now are more sophisticated and disguised in form of stimulus checks and easy money (credit) - and promises of immediate returns without labor. The redistribution of wealth and benefits may provide short term edification and satiation - but the potential fallout of the US dollar in the process will only tighten the chains on the masses eventually.

I wrote the note yesterday in some degree of frustration - I feel republicans have sorely lost their way since Reagan and that Bush's style quite rang out of as non-republican in the manner of his policies.

In the end, the people have simply went out to get the real thing.

Obama may be the right man - but if the essence of the problems are not addressed and the wrong questions asked continually - the spiral down will be undoubtedly exacerbated.

The saving grace is that hopefully Obama seeks and gets wise counsel from his adviser Paul Volcker.

I have to say that if anything went wrong eventually - I don't think Obama would have erred on purpose but simply for the potential goodwill of his people.

*retreats back to bimbo shell

[strocube]

Hey swedeman007,
You and people of your ilk fucking lost this one.
If there were any justice in this world the shrub and the criminal cartel which he fronts, BADLY, would be hanging by their balls right now. They started a war for profit under false pretenses in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and absolutely rattled the world financial system. Oh yeah, they also stole two elections, ass-raped habeas corpus and seriously jeopardized this country's relationships with most of the civilized world. So more of the same seems like a good idea to you?
Oh, "socialism," please don't give me universal health care and a free education for everyone who wants it. I'm just terrified that maybe this country will go the way of Sweden or Canada--the horror.
The right wing, corporate parasites just couldn't get enough mouth-breathers to bend over and let themselves get fucked this time. I have no doubt that they'll be back peddling god, fear and hate re-packaged for a new crop of rubes, but for now the game has shifted.
Dude, if I want fascist propaganda I'll turn on Faux News--not.

[swedeman007]

(strocube @ Nov. 05 2008,22:20) Hey swedeman007,
You and people of your ilk fucking lost this one.  
If there were any justice in this world the shrub and the criminal cartel which he fronts, BADLY, would be hanging by their balls right now. They started a war for profit under false pretenses in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and absolutely rattled the world financial system. Oh yeah, they also stole two elections, ass-raped habeas corpus and seriously jeopardized this country's relationships with most of the civilized world. So more of the same seems like a good idea to you?
Oh, "socialism," please don't give me universal health care and a free education for everyone who wants it. I'm just terrified that maybe this country will go the way of Sweden or Canada--the horror.
The right wing, corporate parasites just couldn't get enough mouth-breathers to bend over and let themselves get fucked this time. I have no doubt that they'll be back peddling god, fear and hate re-packaged for a new crop of rubes, but for now the game has shifted.
Dude, if I want fascist propaganda I'll turn on Faux News--not.

I thought the topic for this thread was "Obama Wins! Good news or not?" Maybe I missed a turn somewhere?

I am not condoning the war or the acts of Bush, but just am plain scared for what the future holds for the USA.

Give this a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r1ApR_-bHI

[jaymee]

(ohnoriceagain @ Nov. 06 2008,11:06)

(jaymee @ Nov. 04 2008,23:19) I'm disappointed that the thirst for socialism has truimphed.

The irony of it all bugs me with China emerging from a dark era of socialism into capatilistic endevours - with the US inversely backwarding itself into an age of socialistic government. Alas, how the tides of power has changed.

McCain to me was the lesser of two evils - he would have probably bungled things up.

Not so badly though like Obama I think... who may screw things up in a bigger scale by virtue of his "good intentions."

Where are they going to get the money needed to fund federal intiatives to "help the people".

Well Obama is the man who would likely tax to death the dying breed of US industrial and technological leaders who are the saving grace of the US economy, due to their unfortunate association with the Wall Street folks.

Its quite sad that the very icons of capitalism (not the robbers from wall street) who can bring US out from these shambolic disasters would be punished financially to spread the wealth around the masses.

If these taxes are not enough, he could just print and borrow more money from China, middle east, japan etc. If they refuse, just nuke em And also restart the GM, Ford, and Chrysler factories again to build tanks and fighter jets for the entire initiative.

The short term satiation for the masses may be edifying - with the balm of federal entitlements providing fleeting relief.

The pain down the path though will undoubtedly emerge, when the very same entitlements buy them nothing, as the US dollar gets destroyed in the process.

The gift of USD $1000 bucks may buy them some LCD TV now, but may not even buy a loaf a bread down the road. But short term gratification is too attractive an offer to refuse.

People who are clearly unequal, do not deserve equal chances.

Socialism has triumphed?  What's worse; feeding the hungry and clothing the naked or feeding global corporate claws at the tune of $700 billion?  Don't let that razor Rockefeller in a nice suit get into your pants, let alone your head.  That's the Bush Doctrine.

Where will the money come from?  Maybe from stopping a war that has put us trillions in debt?    Maybe from a corporation like Exxon that posts new records every quarter; thanks to Republican's greasy palms.

I can't even reply to the rest of what you wrote, it is such a rant.  I will leave you with this, and maybe some of that:

"The gift of USD $1000 bucks may buy them some LCD TV now, but may not even buy a loaf a bread down the road. But short term gratification is too attractive an offer to refuse."  

Agreed, give a man a fish, he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish, he eats forever.

BUT...this is just warped.

"People who are clearly unequal, do not deserve equal chances."

Who are you to judge what is unequal?  Can you install an engine in a 1968 Volkswagon?  Can you unclog my toilet?  Can you neuter my dog?

Sigh... didn't mean to press buttons but socialism is such a dirty word

Bush is a crony capitalist who got his chance to sit at the helm of government. To destroy capitalism to eliminate him and his cronies would be "overdoing" it though (in my humble opinion).

The question that should be asked is - can a leader in capatilism be a leader in government without succumbing to greed? Maybe that was the problem.

One can't be both at the same time.

Well, people who are clearly uneuqal do not deserve equal chances. But, I'm looking at the glass half full, not the glass half empty.

That is a problem that will be repeated again.

When the Investment banks failed - and banks who were operating responsibly and properly were supposed to gain market share from that - but yet find themselves the low person on the totem pole once again since the government has doled out tons of cash to the wall street darlings.

Wall street will be *easier* for Obama... but I wonder if he can say "NO" to the likes of goldman, MS, JP Morgan et al who seem set to get a huge slice of the 700b pie?

Also the likes of GM, Chrysler? Who are on the verge of toppling, due to its inefficient managers - what does the govt do? Dole out cash again to bail them out? Similarly, at the cost of smaller firms who have been waiting for these chances to gain market share when these firms have failed terribly, but get the doors slammed in their faces - since the govt tries to equalize conditions yet again.

E.g. (bad example i know but hope it gives the idea) Money might be doled out now to feed the starving people e.g buying them a chicken from it. But if you told them that the money used to be this chicken was all thats left, and that it could be used to buy a month's supply of instant ramen. What would they choose now?

Cutting spending would be imperative to make things work - withdrawing from the 2 wars will help alot but insufficient. Increasing entitlements may "help" now definitely but it will add downward pressure on the dollar as the currency base would be debased yet again.

I won't elaborate on Healthcare since there's alot of things to consider from that.

Tax the rich? They simply leave and take their businesses and money with them. Look at Jim Rogers who's now twiddling his thumbs in Singapore.

To quote:

Too many people trust government regulators so completely that they abdicate their own common sense to these government bureaucrats.  They trust that if something violates no law, it must be safe.  How many scams have €œIt€™s perfectly legal€ as a hypnotic selling point, luring in the gullible?  Many people did not understand the financial house of cards that are derivatives, but since they were legal and promised a great return, people invested.   It is much the same in any area rife with government involvement.  Many feel that just because their children are getting good grades at a government school, they are getting a good education.  After all, they are passing the government-mandated litmus test.  But, this does not guarantee educational excellence.  Neither is it always the case that a child who does NOT achieve good marks in school is going to be unsuccessful in life.  Is your drinking water safe, just because the government says it is?  Is the internet going to magically become safer for your children if the government approves regulations on it?  I would caution any parent against believing this would be the case.  Nothing should take the place of your own common sense and due diligence.

[strocube]

(swedeman007 @ Nov. 06 2008,12:49)

(strocube @ Nov. 05 2008,22:20) Hey swedeman007,
You and people of your ilk fucking lost this one.  
If there were any justice in this world the shrub and the criminal cartel which he fronts, BADLY, would be hanging by their balls right now. They started a war for profit under false pretenses in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and absolutely rattled the world financial system. Oh yeah, they also stole two elections, ass-raped habeas corpus and seriously jeopardized this country's relationships with most of the civilized world. So more of the same seems like a good idea to you?
Oh, "socialism," please don't give me universal health care and a free education for everyone who wants it. I'm just terrified that maybe this country will go the way of Sweden or Canada--the horror.
The right wing, corporate parasites just couldn't get enough mouth-breathers to bend over and let themselves get fucked this time. I have no doubt that they'll be back peddling god, fear and hate re-packaged for a new crop of rubes, but for now the game has shifted.
Dude, if I want fascist propaganda I'll turn on Faux News--not.

I thought the topic for this thread was "Obama Wins! Good news or not?" Maybe I missed a turn somewhere?

I am not condoning the war or the acts of Bush, but just am plain scared for what the future holds for the USA.  

Give this a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r1ApR_-bHI

Yeah, I looked at it. What's your point? I don't understand why you see it as some frightening thing. What exactly is so scary there? There are one or two statements that I don't agree with, and I'm referring to Barack's analysis of Heart of Darkness, that he says gave him some insight into how it is that white people learn to hate. My reading is exactly the opposite of that. The way I read the book Conrad clearly locates "The Heart of Darkness" in Europe. I read it as an indictment of European Colonialism and brutality in Africa during the 19th century.
As far as the statements of Rev. Wright, so what? Black people are pissed for the way they've been treated in this country. You're somehow shocked by this?
Their experience of this country is completely different from that of white person's experience here.

[marshal]

Obviously we all have very different views, personally leaning to the left is wildly different to socalism! Unfortunatley the term socalist is a much abused term!

My main fear with Obama is that he will not actually manage to see out his term! With the far right looneys and there weapons, i just hope obama doesn't end up in a bodybag! Forget the muslims and all the associated bullshit. Maybe the threat to obama could be closer to home. We have already got a guy sounding off in this forum, what the fuck are the rest of them doing!

   yankee doodle dandy..........................

 sorry swedeman007

[sev7en]

(jaymee @ Nov. 06 2008,12:49) Sigh... didn't mean to press buttons but socialism is such a dirty word

Is it? Is it just the word or the ideology?

Maybe some of the backwards poor asian countries could use some socialism to take care of their citizens, so they didn´t have to beg via sms and mails other people for rent money.

[sev7en]

(swedeman007 @ Nov. 06 2008,08:50) Bill O€™Reilly told Obama to his face it was socialist during their much-discussed interview.

Ah come on, fellow swede, you can´t mention Bill O´Reilly favorable and expect to be taken serious. Foxnews is a zoo, Oreilly is a clown, Hannity his jetser, we all know that.

Stay black!

[sev7en]

(bigmick22 @ Nov. 06 2008,11:50) thank God the American electorate wasn't fooled by scaremongering tactics and bandying about  of words like socialism (which isn't a disease, you know?) or terrorist or Muslim (if he were a muslim, so what? - millions of americans are)

Does anyone here honestly think Barack Obama has sympathies with any terrorist organisation? That he would jeopardise American security (how many thousands of Americans have died because Bush wanted to kill the guy in Iraq who called his daddy names?)? That he is not a patriotic American?  Can anybody here put their hand on their heart and honestly say they believe this?

It's too late for the haters - the tactics of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt have failed!      

Well said.

I was suprised Obama won though, i though average joe would fall for the scaretactics, since the knowledge about the world outside the US (such as socialism which isn´t present in the US) leaves alot to wish for.

Pleasently surprised.

Well said , big mick.

[sev7en]

(strocube @ Nov. 06 2008,12:20) I'm just terrified that maybe this country will go the way of Sweden or Canada--the horror.

Huh? I was agreeing totally with your post til i reached this?

What do you wish for then? An ex-commie, noveau rich eastern country that just found capitalism, run by the maffia, a perfect example of the evils of capitalism ?

I agree with your post, but something tells me you haven´t been in Canada or Sweden. Hell, this type of argument belongs to the nazi.., sorry, rightwing in the US.

[Looker]

(jaymee @ Nov. 06 2008,12:20) I still want to quote this though.. where In Road to Serfdom, Friedrich Hayek quotes Alexis de Tocqueville: "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude."

Socialism sounds extremely taboo - yes - who can forget Hitler. But I'm definitely not alluding that Obama is a probably "hitler" or "kim jong II".

I think you are making a slight confusion between Socialism and Communism.
Many communists (wrongly) claimed to be closely associated to the socialist doctrines but ended up creating "monster" nations like USSR, Mao's P.R. China, N.Korea, Cuba and others on the base of Trotskyism or other similar aberrante ideologies.
Socialist doctrines will never go to such extremes..

[Stogie]

The republican politicians have walked into the slaughter house believing that Americans take Fox and CNN seriously.

As with most of these out of touch megalomaniacs they believe what they are told by their lackeys and spin doctors.

They thought the fatherly old war hero and his simpering idiot princess was the ticket... they were wrong.

[Tomcat]

(jaymee @ Nov. 06 2008,12:20) Socialism sounds extremely taboo - yes - who can forget Hitler.

That analogy is wrong. Hitler wasnt a Socialist by any degree, he stuck the word in his parties name to attract the working class vote..the same reason he stuck the Red in the flag

Just read Mein Kampf, it will soon dispel any ideas that he was a Socialist

Sorry , just had to clear that up, my old History teacher will be rolling in his grave otherwise

[smuttleydfs]

(swedeman007 @ Nov. 05 2008,23:56)

(smuttleydfs @ Nov. 05 2008,20:11) Joe McCarthy Lives and has assumed the pseudonym of Swedeman007!!!!

Amazing? or Pathetic?

I choose the latter.

Pathetic enough to go to a white supremacist website and cut and paste a bunch of far reaching garbage is truly pathetic.

Please Joe the Swedeman McCarthy provide your sources to this monumental information that really truly could have capsized this election far in favor of the right instead of the token black man sweeping twice as many electoral votes as his opponent.
Please provide them so we can send them to the CIA, the FBI, and every other acronyms in governmental security positions so we can keep this scurrilous rascal from assuming the most powerful position in the world!!!!!

Please save us Joe the Swedeman McCarthy before its too late and Mr Obama  has 747s flying into the cities throughout America...........

I beseech you Joe the Swedeman McCarthy we need you now!!!!!




 

This information is posted all over the web and not only on a so called "white supremacist" site.

Regardless of where the information came from it does provide some food for thought.

That Obama's biography touches so frequently on such unsavory organizations as CAIR and the Nation of Islam should give pause and cause some to think a little. How many of the politicians in the US have a single tie to either group? That number is less than seven of them?

The fact is that Obama has longstanding and indirect ties to these two institutions. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), listed by the U.S. government in 2007 as an un-indicted co-conspirator in a Hamas-funding trial; and the Nation of Islam (NoI), condemned by the Anti-Defamation League for its "consistent record of racism and anti-Semitism." This information is not from a so called "white supremacist" site.

I am far from pathetic, but instead just a person who is concerned about the future security of the USA and the well being of its citizens.

You claimed to have "copied and pasted" Joe theswedemanMcCarthy" All I'm saying is provide us the link and the source.

Afraid to be outed as not only a bigot or what?

[pacman]

(swedeman007 @ Nov. 06 2008,10:58) ...was a setup for me to get the old "pacman" treatment. Two lumps and thick stick upside my head.

WTF??      

"the old pacman treatment"??   Now what have I done??     Can't wait for the explanation to that one.

As for the the question concerning Obama being a socialist, just what do you think has been the outcome of the massive cash injection of $700 billion into bailing out the casualties of the credit crisis?

It can no longer be called capitalism when the Fed has effectively nationalised the banking system.

All free enterprise risk has been removed from this new paradigm, you can call it what you like but socialism is the word that comes closest according to my definition.
I applaud the election of Barack Obama     , he has a hell of a task in front of him, expectations will be impossibly high, but a smart man with a new broom is the only way I can see the US getting out of this.