Down with George Bush!

[Torurot]

>Now you are making up things in mid flight...

Don't see where. All the information AGAINST invasion was there in PLAIN sight. Some want to write history in the favour of the illegal invaders, USA, Britain, & Australia.

>All i was indicating that CIA material was presented as evidence that WMD may have still existed...

That's not what you implied. Nor was it what UNSCOM had discovered.

>everyone appears to have dismissed this evidence as incorrect or misleading or contorted.
>(some probably was to push their case, but much of it was real - not conclusive however)

"Everyone" that was not part of the coalition of the stupid & the "willing" dismissed this evidence as incorrect or misleading or contorted.

>Then along comes a CIA document that supports your case and magically this CIA document is worth every penny.

That's what the National Intelligence Estimate from the CIA said! It didn't say "attack Iraq". Rove et al decided they knew better based on what?. That it supports my case that the coalition of the stupid should not have gone to war is purely coincidental although fortuitous. This was ALL known BEFORE your invasion. Why try to rewrite history in favour of the illegal invaders?

>Sorry you cant have it both ways~~ thats all my point is!

Where are we having it both ways. You confuse CIA and other intelligence agencies with the government. One works on behalf of the other.

>Nothing to do with who voted to go to war

Who voted for war is relevant & very much to the point.

>Does anyone else here see the irony in using a CIA document as the basis of argument?

Powel knew he was talking out his arse at the UN. Do you think dead Iraqis see that as "ironic"?


>IF one bit of CIA info that related to Iraq was shite, then all must be considered shite.

You effectively said we either accept all the intel or none of it. Doesn't seem logical does it.

>You cant have an argument saying one minute CIA documents were used to mislead USA into
>a war and then the next use another set of CIA documents to prove that the US mislead the US people


It's a perfect fit, and exactly what happened. No confusion there. There is no inconsistency here. CIA (and other) documents & people WERE used (by US executive) to mislead both the parliament (and other coalition parties) and the US (& other) people! That's fact. You do know about the Downing Str memo. Further evidence of an orchestrated litany of lies on the part of a number of governments who wished to rain death on innocents. The "misleading" was absolutely deliberate. You also imply that the CIA took America and it's coalition of the stupid into an illegal and immoral war against the Sovereign country of Iraq. I wasn't aware the CIA had that power. Various governments including yours did that.

You continue to give your coalition one hell of a lot of wriggle room.

[azza33]

You and Michael Moore would have a field day together!!

[azza33]

Lefty. I must say i enjoyed post 176!!

That video was dare i say it, enjoyable. Michael Moore would have been proud of that editing job!

This is not having a go at you... you've written some good stuff!

But seriously, Rumsfeld talks shit with the best of them, he doesn't actually answer much thats ever asked - i loved the response to where are the WMD.. oh around Baghdad Tikrit, then the audio trails off with him saying North South East West of there.... In other words he has no fucking idea... What a pisser! - he actually never lied on that front..

To give us a video of politicians in full swing changing tune mid stream and altering what they said to fit the latest situation... FFS thats got to be a world first!!

As emotive the appeal of that video is, its just clever editing and Mike Moore would be proud of it.

Incidentally, I'd suggest the guy who puts this together is a Mike Moore fan as he used the same event that MM used to put down GWB. The president gives a light hearted speech and takes the piss out of himself (now i don't know the name of the event, but i'm sure you do). - i believe its a charity night.

Yes both of them are tasteless, thats not a crime and no one ever accused GW of being bright.

[Lefty]

Glad you liked the video. As for any comparison to MM, since I believe he is someone who loves his country but has disdain for his current govt, the comparison is no insult to me.

[Lefty]

(azza33 @ Jun. 02 2008,20:59)



You and Michael Moore would have a field day together!!

With all due respect, it looks to me like Torurot pretty much owned you in his previous post, because all you can retort is to align him with Moore? Every point Torurot made is something I agree with basically.

I don't know where you are from Tor, but you sure do have a good handle on the fuckwads who currently comprise our administration.

[azza33]

(Lefty @ Jun. 02 2008,22:20) With all due respect, it looks to me like Torurot pretty much owned you in his previous post, because all you can retort is to align him with Moore? Every point Torurot made is something I agree with basically.

Wow, I'm actually surprised that one would have gone over your head Lefty!

My reply to his writing was - only because he doesn't seem to get my posts most of the time.

I really couldn't be bothered any longer pointing out line by line how he misunderstood. It seems I have to explain every point twice before he gets it.

Now the reference to MM was simply the twisting of my points and then answer with bullshit responses - this is classic MM.

He is one individual i despise immensely. In fact the mere sight of the individual sickens me. Why? Not because he is passionate about his beliefs ... its because he manipulates information to suit his agenda and does not give a balanced viewpoint and flat out lies. Its rather ironic that you clearly hold someone like this on mantle yet GW bush and his team you hate... yet they are in the same business mate.

MM is a scammer - "we" all loved Fahrenheit 911, take a look at farenhype 911 ... then you can see the rest that your idolized man chose to forget, omitted, deliberately rearranged or falsified.

The funniest thing i ever heard about MM was that some guys that idolised him went to make a documentary on him, by the end of it they despised MM because they became aware of the tricks of his trade.. hmmm funny that

Clearly we sit on opposite sides of the fence here Lefty, but you guys still don't get it!

And never did... the public bullshit and evidence was just that... its a way to rally public support and idealism.
America knows it cannot fight a war without the support of the public (see Vietnam) -- and they got it by using what information they had and presented a case to the people - this is an argument, not everyone bought it, but above 60% did at the time. (they won the argument, the anti-war argument lost - game over) - public support established.

At the end of the day, Saddams continual violations of the UN resolutions was the underpinning reason why they got invaded. For 10 years weapons inspectors were never allowed to fully do their job. Patience finally ran out for the guy.

The guy taunted 3 presidents, made a mockery of the UN for 10 years, bombed Israel for something to do in his spare time, invaded a sovereign nation himself, dropped chemical weapons on his own people... the list goes on and on - whats not to like about the guy?

And you seriously expect some of us to feel Iraq was invaded unjustly?

And finally, like i already said before, the war ended on may 1st 2003.

The rest of the time its been Iraqis killings Iraqis and Muslim brothers joining some fucked up cause to do the same and score a few infidels along the way.

The US and the other 30-40 countries have been in a peacekeeping role since may 1st 2003 - not a war of aggression.

Again, like i said post 911, the US had very "hawkish" people behind the scenes that believed strongly in the notion of preemptive strike to remove a threat. I can only speculate they probably had a list of "threats" to remove 1 by 1 after 911.

If Iraq finished easily on May 1st 2003, then i almost guarantee Syria and Iran would have been invaded and god knows what that could have escalated into.

Would you care to disagree on this last point?


War is ALL about public support gentlemen

- without it, it does not matter how big your army etc etc

US government learnt that lesson, seems some people around here have not!

What do you think "smart bombs" is about: its telling the people hey we can get only the bad guys, no good guy will ever get hurt.... LOL

PROPAGANDA~~

[azza33]

>Now you are making up things in mid flight...

Don't see where. All the information AGAINST invasion was there in PLAIN sight. Some want to write history in the favour of the illegal invaders, USA, Britain, & Australia.

>All i was indicating that CIA material was presented as evidence that WMD may have still existed...

That's not what you implied. Nor was it what UNSCOM had discovered.

I shall reply to this section to indicate what i mean!

The point about making things up is his obscure reference in him trying to lecture me that the US govt voted for war not the CIA .. for FFS i never mentioned that... then of course the rest of his point which is valid but not in anyway related to what i was talking about.

The next he tries to tell me what i implied. - good one

When i write i may be writing with hindsight, such "CIA material was presented as evidence that WMD may have still existed" , to remove the hindsight reference i may write "CIA material was presented as evidence that WMD did exist" (the latter certainly doesn't imply WMD existed)

Now i am willing to concede Tororut first language may not be English and hence he may have missed the subtlety in the way i reference events in time.

Now i cant be assed going through his every point..... suffice to say i am happy to debate the issue but we seem to be traveling parallel paths which makes going head to head a little difficult.

[Lefty]

(azza33 @ Jun. 02 2008,23:36)

(Lefty @ Jun. 02 2008,22:20) With all due respect, it looks to me like Torurot pretty much owned you in his previous post, because all you can retort is to align him with Moore?     Every point Torurot made is something I agree with basically.

Wow, I'm actually surprised that one would have gone over your head Lefty!

My reply to his writing was    - only because he doesn't seem to get my posts most of the time.

I really couldn't be bothered any longer pointing out line by line how he misunderstood. It seems I have to explain every point twice before he gets it.

Now the reference to MM was simply the twisting of my points and then answer with bullshit responses - this is classic MM.

He is one individual i despise immensely. In fact the mere sight of the individual sickens me. Why? Not because he is passionate about his beliefs ... its because he manipulates information to suit his agenda and does not give a balanced viewpoint and flat out lies. Its rather ironic that you clearly hold someone like this on mantle yet GW bush and his team you hate... yet they are in the same business mate.

MM is a scammer - "we" all loved Fahrenheit 911, take a  look at farenhype 911 ... then you can see the rest that your idolized man chose to forget, omitted, deliberately rearranged or falsified.

The funniest thing i ever heard about MM was that some guys that idolised him went to make a documentary on him, by the end of it they despised MM because they became aware of the tricks of his trade.. hmmm funny that  

Clearly we sit on opposite sides of the fence here Lefty, but you guys still don't get it!

And never did... the public bullshit and evidence was just that... its a way to rally public support and idealism.
America knows it cannot fight a war without the support of the public (see Vietnam) -- and they got it by using what information they had and presented a case to the people - this is an argument, not everyone bought it, but above 60% did at the time. (they won the argument, the anti-war argument lost - game over) - public support established.

At the end of the day, Saddams continual violations of the UN resolutions was the underpinning reason why they got invaded. For 10 years weapons inspectors were never allowed to fully do their job. Patience finally ran out for the guy.

The guy taunted 3 presidents, made a mockery of the UN for 10 years, bombed Israel for something to do in his spare time, invaded a sovereign nation himself, dropped chemical weapons on his own people... the list goes on and on - whats not to like about the guy?

And you seriously expect some of us to feel Iraq was invaded unjustly?  

And finally, like i already said before, the war ended on may 1st 2003.

The rest of the time its been Iraqis killings Iraqis and Muslim brothers joining some fucked up cause to do the same and score a few infidels along the way.

The US and the other 30-40 countries have been in a peacekeeping role since may 1st 2003 - not a war of aggression.

Again, like i said post 911, the US had very "hawkish" people behind the scenes that believed strongly in the notion of preemptive strike to remove a threat. I can only speculate they probably had a list of "threats" to remove 1 by 1 after 911.

If Iraq finished easily on May 1st 2003, then i almost guarantee Syria and Iran would have been invaded and god knows what that could have escalated into.

Would you care to disagree on this last point?  


War is ALL about public support gentlemen

- without it, it does not matter how big your army etc etc

US government learnt that lesson, seems some people around here have not!

What do you think "smart bombs" is about: its telling the people hey we can get only the bad guys, no good guy will ever get hurt.... LOL

PROPAGANDA~~

The Moore thing, I just did not agree with, I do think I got it.

To be fair, I do hope that you hold the right wing equivalents, such as Rush and O'Liar is a similar low light.

As for us guys not getting it, you are incorrect...I got it just fine, but never fell for it, or needed to support it to help bolster my political career. The people who spoke out against involvement in Iraq from the get go are some of the few I hold in high regard. Names like Ron Paul, Russ Feingold, Dennis Kucinich, etc.


As for the war ending May 1, 2003, now why is that? Because the Shrub said so when he landed on the deck of the carrier Abraham Lincoln wearing his spiffy flight suit and looking all brave and tough, and declaring it so?
You and Dumbya may say the war ended back then, but that does not make it so.  
I guess it depends on how one defines the word 'war', but then again Dumbya never said the war ended then, he used the term "Major combat operations"
As for it just being "Iraqis killing Iraqis" since then and us being in a peace keeping role, well it sure has been as deadly and bloody in that role, as it was before that. Not to mention being a huge drain on US resources.

I do agree that "the US had very "hawkish" people behind the scenes that believed strongly in the notion of preemptive strike to remove a threat", but the plans and ideas to invade Iraq were already being concocted in the diabolical minds of BushCo, long before 9/11. That day just gave them a more convenient excuse to drum up support.

Perhaps Hermann Goering said it best at the Nuremburg Trials:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  

[rxpharm]

Lefty, you have it right, azza33 is trolling for replies - I think he wants to have a bit of fun - he's flipped from saying GWB is a good president, but circumstances conspired against him (conveniently overlooking his multitude of bad decisions in domestic and international affairs) to now saying he isn't that good.

At least he likes lbs! One thing I cannot understand is how can someone support Republicans when the party has no tolerance for lbs, gays, etc.

[PigDogg]

(Lefty @ Jun. 08 2008,12:11) Perhaps Hermann Goering said it best at the Nuremburg Trials:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

While I certainly no Nazi sympathizer, Goering sure got that one right. It really irks me when dissenters are accused of being unpatriotic.

[azza33]

(rxpharm @ Jun. 09 2008,03:28) Lefty, you have it right, azza33 is trolling for replies - I think he wants to have a bit of fun - he's flipped from saying GWB is a good president, but circumstances conspired against him (conveniently overlooking his multitude of bad decisions in domestic and international affairs) to now saying he isn't that good.

At least he likes lbs!  One thing I cannot understand is how can someone support Republicans when the party has no tolerance for lbs, gays, etc.

Hey Rxpham.. don't spoil my 'fun' !

On GWB - he is president of unfortunate timing. my comment about being good was definitely tongue in cheek for sure. (i just enjoy that charity night when he takes the piss out of himself- you guys should wtach the video... GWB is really quite funny) - Domestic US politics i don't follow.

And i'm happy for the US economy to be faltering and the aussie dollar rising because i can import very cheaply from the US now ... I love amazon!

[Lefty]

(azza33 @ Jun. 09 2008,13:18) On GWB - he is president of unfortunate timing.

He would be an inept worthless SOB at any time...there can be no fortunate timing where he is concerned, except we will all be fortunate if Bush doesn't give us the finger one more time and bombs Iran before leaving office.