Down with George Bush!

[Monkey]

that was the condensed version

I left out the parts about Roosevelt, US public opinion and US Government policy.

The Commonwealth is a voluntary association and it's probably written in there somewhere that if Britain goes to war then it'd be nice if the member Nations did too.

There was the Statute of Westminster 1931, which might have meant you had to join us but I'm not sure, this had to be ratified by the Australian Government before it could apply, but this wasn't done until 1942 and was back dated to the start of the war.

Enough with the history lessons, I'm enjoying the 'yank baiting' that's been going on..

Now, where did I put the popcorn?




*waits for someone to say "didn't Germany annex Australia in 1938....?"

[janabiyah]

I think George is a great leader and history will define him as such.

He has never shrunk from taking difficult decisions and the fallout from these will be very long term.

It's difficult to be a popular leader in a wartime scenario

The modern soldiers life is much more valuable than ever before and politicians who squander these assets are quickly brought to account, unlike days gone by.

Tough times for GWB

[JaiDee]

Scott Mclellan, the prez's own press secretary a few years back, has just come out with a bombshell of a book in which he states that  GW basically lied his way into the war, of course with the help of the real prez  Cheney and his pals Rove and Scooter.  Iraq was a free nation; they had nothing to do with 9/11; they were not an Al Queda safe haven, only Afghanistan was; sure, they had a bad dictator but so does North Korea and Cuba, and so did Albania for years and years, East Germany and Poland, Romania, etc..... you never seen us going in those places.


      Funny, I wonder if Elvis had billions of barrels of oil sitting under Pyongyang if we would have gone in there?   I mean why not, they have nukes and he treats his people as bad as saddam did; but then again he didn't try to kill GW's Daddy so he gets a pass  


    For those of you who have forgotten recent history, Iran helped us to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan in late 2001; they let us use their supply lines on the border so the CIA could get in the weapons necessary to help the northern Alliance beat those fuckheads. At that time they had  Khatami as president and he wanted better relations with the US; remember, Iran had much more hatred for Iraq at that time than for America, they had a bloody border war for 8 years in the 80's and hated Saddam, they would have preferred to work with us and in point of fact most young Iranians love the USA and western ideals and fashions, etc....  He sent a peace offering through some back door channels, the Swiss embassy of all places, to speak with George about conciliation with the USA;  GW and his fuckhead Texas yahoo friends decided to not even answer;  very open-minded, Georgie.

 3 years later the Ayatollah's and clerics who really run that country had seen enough and gave up on having a reformist president; they selected Ahmedinijad in his place and any and all attempts at working with the USA were then squashed in favour of the hardliners coming back into power.   Of course Mahmoud is a nutcase, but he didn't have to come in;  Iran was heading slowly into reforms from 1997-2002 and that moron was just the mayor of Tehran, he had no real power;  he only got that when  Khatami failed in his attempts to reach out to the west.


        That war with Iraq is a dream come true for them now,  are you kidding;  let their most hated neighbor as well as their most hated foreign adversary fight it out while they stand by and develop nukes and make their army stronger.  Iran is the real power in the region, someone with a bit more liberal ideology {Obama?} would be working with those people and not just telling them to fuck off, although I fear it's a bit too late now.


 Hey, I love my country also, it was just way better before this guy ever got near the white house... no way in hell he doesn't go down as the worst president ever, unless of course you want to go back to Franklin Pierce and  U.S. Grant,  et al......  in modern times this guy is easily the worst.

[Road Runner]

The head of state is still QEII  -  but like in several other Commonwealth countries the Governor General is the de-facto head of state.
Like in most contries with a constitutional monarch the head of state pretty much just signs whatever the government puts in front of them  -  after taking proper legal advice.
Yes I am fully aware of the Gough Whitlam episode  -  the GG was aware that the clown Whitlam was planning to sack him so he got in first.
The contact with the crown in the UK was all about checking on legal precedents (ie. not breaking the law) it was NOT to ask permission.

Remember a hangover of getting independence is that your legal system is based on the UK and our system works on precedent
 -  all the way back to 1198. Even the US uses UK case precedents for cases before 1776  -  does that mean the Queen runs the US?  

The part of Privy Council that decides Commonwealth cases is made up only of the Law Lords.
OK yes it's the UK Law Lords but remember that they are there to decide points of law  -  they are not allowed to have any political agenda.
In fact I think it is perhaps even a benefit in a way as the people making the judgement  -  and remember it's on a dry legal detail not an individual's case  -  probably know or care little about the politics in the country they are deciding for.

Even if Australia became a republic it would still be possible that the Privy Council would remain the supreme court of appeal.
That would be a separate constitutional issue.

Australia is a soverigh country  -  QEII does not run it (nor the GG)  -  the Privy Council does not run it  -  it's run by an elected government.
A government that can decide to go to war or not.
A government that can hold a referendum as to whether Australia becomes a republic or not  -  and if the result was yes then that government can make it happen.

And yes the Queen of England would have to sign the paper  -  after taking legal advice from the Privy Council.

RR.

[JaiDee]

(janabiyah @ May 28 2008,19:12) I think George is a great leader and history will define him as such.

He has never shrunk from taking difficult decisions and the fallout from these will be very long term.

??

he got us into a war for no reason ...... Iraq didn't even have any nukes or WMD's and was not an Al Quada training ground; until WE went in there and messed things up!   He will go down as the WORST in modern times and his 23% approval ratings back this up, he's a clown and a cowboy who had no right ever hanging his hat in washington, damn him to history as a very evil man who has the blood of thousands of young U.S. boys and girls on his hands as well as hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's.

repeat after me...... we had NO RIGHT invading that country, they had never done anything to us!

[Torurot]

I WAS going to stay out of this thread, BUT Azza is so full of inaccurate "reminiscences". Do some research. Scott Ritter ex UNSCOM (& I believe an Ozzie) + IAEA would be a start. That would clear up the endless bullshit on Iraqs so called WMD. You may recall that the USA REFUSED to let the UN Weapon inspectors finish the job and ORDERED them out. It was either leave or be bombed by the war crime that was the baby killing "shock & awe" along with all the "precision" guided death on INNOCENT Iraqi civilians. FACT Iraq did nothing to the USA, had NOTHING to do with 911. Remember Fulluja.

As an aside, just when is the USA going to allow it's own stocks of Nukes, WMD, Biologicals to be audited by an independent body? Fucking hypocrites!

Do yourself a favour and go check www.warincontext.org

[JaiDee]

of course, we had no right to be in there, we bombed a soverign nation to bits and then just complain and bitch when we have no post-war plan and the place falls into a civil war from which we have no plan to get out and a white guy can't even walk down the street without a flak jacket on for the next 50 years.

       When I hear Hannity or Limbaugh or any other right-wing fanatics making excuses for this war and saying it's good we are in there, etc..... I just have to wonder what planet they are living on?

 repeated again..... these people did NOTHING to us!!

 They were bad to their own people but that was not our problem; North Korea is far worse and we never went near there.


 Big Big Mistake, the righties just have to admit this and get out now.

[Torurot]

>Iraq was a free nation; they had nothing to do with 9/11; they >were not an Al Queda safe haven, only Afghanistan was;

Interesting Al Queda was an offshoot of the Mujahadeen, Taliban whom the US CIA (heard of them?) financed, armed & trained to attack the Russians in Afghanistan. Afghanistan, a mountainous country made up of "tribes" has NEVER been conquered, not even by the Romans. Afghanistan was also (like Iraq) NOT responsible for 911. Ask yourselves why the "decider" Prez carried on reading "My Pet Goat" for so long!

[JaiDee]

we supported the Mujahadeen in their struggle against the Soviets ....and they won!

which was about as impossible as a small, ass-backwards country like North Vietnam defeating the USA {ooops, that happened also}  


  from the splinters of the Mujahadeen came the Taliban..... but not all of them were Taliban , again recent history will show us that Afghanistan is a mish-mash of tribal rule and indiscriminate authority, where Warlords hold the true power; for once they came together to defeat a common enemy, the Russians,  but post-1990 that country was in a massive civil war and the 2 strongest factions had control of "most" of the country; the Taliban and the Northern Alliance lead my Shah Massoud.  

       By 2001 the Taliban had control of 75% and yes indeed they were a safe haven for Al Quada and  Bin Laden and yes indeed as a splinter group of the Mujahadeen they were once aided by the USA with stinger rockets and small arms to defeat the Russians.

   Doesn't mean we supported them in 2001 ..... just, as is common in our history, we sided with someone who came back later to stab us in the back. NO ONE could work with the Taliban, they were freaks who followed a strict interpretation of the Koran that 99% of Muslims would not even understand and which Bin Laden and his followers in their global jihad could relate to.

           To get Al Quada we had to go to Afghanistan; where else could we get at Bin Laden, the guy who started 9/11? He was being protected there; the fact that the people who were protecting him were once indirectly aided by the USA is an inconsistancy in our foreign policy which has been repeated dozens of times in recent years.

Hell, we supported Saddam from 1980-1988 in his 'sand war' against the Iranians and 15 years later we had him hung!!

[Torurot]

>where Warlords hold the true power; for once they came
>together to defeat a common enemy, the Russians,

The US will not, CANNOT "win" in Afghanistan or Iraq. The US IS now the "common enemy". Support the troops, leave now while they still live!

US has little to no empathy with the people they invade, kill & maim. When you attack my family, when you attack my tribe then you make me your enemy. Americans have NEVER understood tribalism. Tribalism is a hydra you can't kill. Tribes will always band together against a common enemy. When that's defeated they will go back to bashing the "other" tribe.

[azza33]

(Torurot @ May 28 2008,19:35) I WAS going to stay out of this thread, BUT Azza is so full of inaccurate "reminiscences". Do some research. Scott Ritter ex UNSCOM (& I believe an Ozzie) + IAEA would be a start. That would clear up the endless bullshit on Iraqs so called WMD. You may recall that the USA REFUSED to let the UN Weapon inspectors finish the job and ORDERED them out.

seems you have missed my point....

I reiterate... the paranoia that occurred post 911 together with fact they stuffed up the intel pre 911 meant they went fishing for something that wasn't there because they were convinced there was....

I'm not arguing whether Iraq is a good or bad thing - just trying to understand the thinking that lead to an end result that was a complete disaster (nobody would deny)
Nor am I claiming Iraq has WMD....

I'm not the sort that goes for the easy oil conspiracy garbage.....


re: North Korea.... I wonder how many of you people have been to the DMZ and actually understand that part of the world.
I for one have, its an experience, driving around through mine fields, machine gun posts, kms or wire fencing, seeing troops at battle stations 24/7 - speaking to troops who are so shit scared at night because they can't see whats happening over the border - daytime gives them relative peace.

The reason why nobody is going to mess with north korea readily is because the casualty numbers would be in the millions people... simple fact! It only about 50 km between Seoul and 1 million Nth Korean troops. 37,000 US forces which are described as a trip-wire and 400,000 South Korean forces are not going to hold up so well.
They even moved the US airforce base backwards because it would not be held in an attack from the North.
Its not about oil people.....

As an aside, just when is the USA going to allow it's own stocks of Nukes, WMD, Biologicals to be audited by an independent body? Fucking hypocrites!

agree 100% and i've always said we have no right to tell countries what they can and cant build.

And US smart bombs are the biggest propaganda tool ever trying to smooth over the carnage they do....

[Torurot]

>Its not about oil people.....

If it's not about oil, and it sure ain't about "democracy", then exactly what is it about?

The USA spends more on offence (not defence) than ALL, that's ALL nations of the WORLD combined. Imagine how rich the US would be if it just stopped fucking with the rest of us!

Of course they would have to find REAL jobs for the millions who would suddenly be outta work. The military industrial complex is NOT a figment of some economists mind.

Many of the US troops signed up for the educational benefits, not to fight, and certainly not for the "adventure".

[JaiDee]

(azza33 @ May 28 2008,20:32) The reason why nobody is going to mess with north korea readily is because the casualty numbers would be in the millions people

Elvis and his equally-weird father have killed at least this many North Koreans since 1950 ..... either in their prison camps or through starvation caused by self-induced famine, torture, etc .... and it's a fact that they have WMD's ..... Iraq never did save for a few chemical weapons.

  It's just strange for right-wing Americans to say 'well, we had to go and kick out Saddam, he was a tyrant'  after all their other arguments for us being in that hellhole fall through.  Again, if that's the main reason  then their rationale should include us going to Pyongyang as well; after all, what other reason could we be in Iraq since they found no WMD's and it's been proven that Bin Laden and Saddam didn't get along, therefore there was never a  safe haven for Al Quada.

being in either country is, of course, madness.

[azza33]

Elvis and his equally-weird father

That made we laugh Jaidee... Did u ever see Team America? What a pisser.... Kim Jon Il ... what a pisstake !

[JaiDee]

The Hermit Kingdom indeed

those 2 nutjobs have a special place in hell sectioned off just for them