The First Crusade

[Tomcat]

while we are on tales of atrocities...

One of the biggest cover ups of all time took place around 50 odd years ago. Only now have a few journalists brought this matter to the fore...and it wont go away....

After the surrender of Germany on VE day to the allies around 3 million ethnic Germans lost their lives . Two million of these were civilians and no one has ever disputed the figures. The allies conveniently forgot and the Germans were riddled with guilt, although the East Europeans were mainly to blame some of the atrocities took place under the noses of the allies.

remember this is after the white flag went up....

A historian released a book around 4 weeks ago on this subject and some of the gruesome tales were even worse than Ziggy mentioned above.... dreadfull....even the reviewer was sick...

[strocube]

No shortage of stupid and violent people in this world. Whatever the excuse, be it religion, greed, "national security" or whatever, there are ijits just waiting to go and kill people in the name of Allah, Jesus or the fucking Easter Bunny. All it takes is some effective marketing/propaganda. It worked for the Crusades, and it's worked for countless wars and invasions since.
The other day I remember hearing about a fifteen-year-old Kurdish girl that was stoned to death for having sex with her boyfriend. My immediate reaction was "these primitive-ass religious fanatics make me sick, what the fuck is wrong with these people?" It made me hate them.
A moment later I thought about our own fanatics and then about the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, most of whom are old people and women and children.

[allstar88]

[Guest]

(strocube @ May 13 2007,02:26) A moment later I thought about our own fanatics and then about the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, most of whom are old people and women and children.  

So are you a Shi'ite or a Sunni?

Because it is the Iraqis who are slaughtering innocent people in Iraqi, not the soldiers from the UK or USA.

[kartika]

Groundhog...the Crusades were actually preached by Pope Urban in 1096 sfter a call for help by the Eastern Chuch. Remember that the Catholic church was divided in into the Western church based in Rome and the richer Eastern church based in Constantinople. The Emporer in Constantinople called on the Pope for an army to help stop the Saracens (Turks) from swamping his territory. Instead of an army he got an undiciplined rabble of ignorant, untrained and misguided peasants, opportunists, criminals and the flotsam and jetsam of medeavil Europe......as they say, "the rest is history".
For anyone to try and link the turmoil in the Muslim world today with the Crusades is is absurd. Todays problems all relate to the carving up of the Muslim world by early colonial powers, two world wars, the cold war and the corrupt governments and royal dictators ruling their countries, who exploit any oppotunity to stay in power. Throw in the fact that many are oil rich...........

[Guest]

(kartika @ May 13 2007,08:24) Todays problems all relate to the carving up of the Muslim world by early colonial powers, two world wars, the cold war and the corrupt governments and royal dictators ruling their countries, who exploit any oppotunity to stay in power. Throw in the fact that many are oil rich...........

You left out the most critical variable of all. ISLAM.

It is not a religion of peace. Too many average Muslims sympathise with Al Qaeda. That is not the fault of Winston Churchill.

[Groundhog]

(kartika @ May 13 2007,08:24) Groundhog...the Crusades were actually preached by Pope Urban in 1096 sfter a call for help by the Eastern Chuch. Remember that the Catholic church was divided in into the Western church based in Rome and the richer Eastern church based in Constantinople. The Emporer in Constantinople called on the Pope for an army to help stop the Saracens (Turks) from swamping his territory. Instead of an army he got an undiciplined rabble of ignorant, untrained and misguided peasants, opportunists, criminals and the flotsam and jetsam of medeavil Europe......as they say, "the rest is history".
For anyone to try and link the turmoil in the Muslim world today with the Crusades is is absurd. Todays problems all relate to the carving up of the Muslim world by early colonial powers, two world wars, the cold war and the corrupt governments and royal dictators ruling their countries, who exploit any oppotunity to stay in power. Throw in the fact that many are oil rich...........

You are right kartika (I guess I either failed to get a proper Catholic education or old age and bad behavior is finally affecting my memory) ... Alexander II was pope before Urban II and was mainly concerned with encouraging the Franks and Iberians to push the Muslims back to Africa (they made some progress)... it was Urban II though kicked off the hostilities.

In regard to the Muslim issue, it's hard to say what went wrong. Islam has always been autocratic and warlike ... but the Islamic cities of the early Middle Ages (especially Baghdad which was the world's center of learning and commerce in the 9th and 10th centuries) were some of the best and most enlightened places in the world to live ... especially for Jews and Christians who had a special status as 'people of the book'

I think the event that marked the decline of Islam is when Genghis Khan sacked Baghdad and killed the caliph (the top Muslim in the world at that time) along with everyone else. After that, Islam went on to become a disjoint, highly tribal religion, and has never really recovered.

Modern Islam is coming to be dominated by the Wahhabists of the deserts of Saudi Arabia. The Brits were mainly responsible for the mess in the Middle East, because of their uninformed decisions after WWI for leaving Iraq, Jordan and Arabia in the hands of the Hasshemites (Hussein of Mecca and his sons Abdulla in Jordan and Faisel in Iraq). They were weak, and Arabia quickly fell to ibn Saud, backed by the Wahhabists; Iraq fell later to Abdul Nasser's secular Bathists (thus Saddam Hussain); Syria to el-Assad. The Bathists gained power because of the Suez debacle...again, poor handling by the UK.

The really stupid thing about the US and UK today as that they have both backed the Wahhabist religious nutso's (e.g., the Saudi kings, and especially the bin Ladens who are very close to the Bush family) ... at the same time they have undermined and destroyed the modernizing secular governments of Saddam Hussain, Hafez el-Assad and Abdul Nasser.

This is the problem of having a religious nutso ignoramus in the White House who calls the war in Iraq -- of all things -- a "crusade"

And I'm sure we will all eventually pay dearly for it ....

[kartika]

Groumdhog, they say great minds think alike We agree totally here. Big fuck up by the colonials in the early days followed by a polarization during the cold war. The connection with American support for the brutal yet strategically vital Shah in Iran (the worlds last real absolute monarch) and the hatred the Iranians seem to have for America now can't be ignored. And Iran is not the only one: Egypt and Pakistan are only a political assasination away from turmoil. I agree it is funny that Americas two greatest friends and allies in the Mid-East, Israel and Saudi Arabia, create most of the trouble for them. Solution would be a line of bulldozers pushing everything between Istanbul and the Indian border into the cesspit they call the Persian Gulf LOL Groundhog, we h ave to meet for a beer at the Guess when I make my first trip to LOL this year so we can solve the rest of the worlds troubles

[Groundhog]

(kartika @ May 13 2007,19:59) Groumdhog, they say great minds think alike We agree totally here. Big fuck up by the colonials in the early days followed by a polarization during the cold war. The connection with American support for the brutal yet strategically vital Shah in Iran (the worlds last real absolute monarch) and the hatred the Iranians seem to have for America now can't be ignored. And Iran is not the only one: Egypt and Pakistan are only a political assassination away from turmoil. I agree it is funny that Americas two greatest friends and allies in the Mid-East, Israel and Saudi Arabia, create most of the trouble for them. Solution would be a line of bulldozers pushing everything between Istanbul and the Indian border into the cesspit they call the Persian Gulf LOL Groundhog, we h ave to meet for a beer at the Guess when I make my first trip to LOL this year so we can solve the rest of the worlds troubles

... gotta agree kartika ... Pakistan especially ... the Baluchistan half of Pakistan is all Taliban, and a law unto itself (and probably home to Osama to boot). The growth of 'free zones' for anti-American military action like Baluchistan, Afganistan and now Iraq is will be a huge problem for the foreseeable future. Even without assassination, Musharrif will not last the current scandal over the judiciary (he is already losing support from the military). Expect to see him working full time on the Comedy Channel next year.

The funny thing about Iran is that... yes, they hate America in the abstract ... but I know people who work there (mainly Italians) who say on a personal level, and particularly with the younger people, that relationships are cordial, the women are attractive (veil and all) , and there is a great fascination with the West and America in particular.


Talk about Bush snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ... and all for a cost of (after this year) probably $2 trillion



EM when you will be in LOS and we'll meet up ... My next visit is down south ... I plan to be in Hat Yai (first trip) in June

[Snick]

Your average Urban Iranian is very pro-American, which scares the hell out the clerics ruling the place and is why the government is getting more restrictive and less democratic. Its also why Iran has the highest brain drain in the world, a huge number of college graduates emigrate to the West (USA, Europe and Australia).

BTW. I don't subscribe to the colonial era fault theory. The west had their grubby hands in Vietnam and China back then; and they are doing fine now. Whats the difference between Asia and the Middle East ? "Hard Work+Education vs. Islam"

[Guest]

(Snick @ May 13 2007,20:42) Your average Urban Iranian is very pro-American, which scares the hell out the clerics ruling the place and is why the government is getting more restrictive and less democratic. Its also why Iran has the highest brain drain in the world, a huge number of college graduates emigrate to the West (USA, Europe and Australia).

BTW. I don't subscribe to the colonial era fault theory. The west had their grubby hands in Vietnam and China back then; and they are doing fine now. Whats the difference between Asia and the Middle East ? "Hard Work+Education vs. Islam"

I think these are good points. We, as Westerners, love to blame ourselves for what is wrong in the Muslim world. It feeds our own narcissism and arrogance. The colonial fuck-up theory falls apart when one considers that western European powers colonized every region on earth, and even though some countries are clearly more prosperous than others now, the areas still marked by communal bloodshed today are primarily those with significant Muslim populations. The problem is Islam. It needs to look internally and reform itself. That is not to say every Muslim is a nutter, as evidenced by the Persian Muslims emigrants and many people living under the yoke of mullahs within Iran.

[kartika]

Snick I am far from trying to accuse the colonial powers of creating the problem, just noting that it isone of many contributing factors. Bottom line is that Islam seems to have a major problem defining it's place in the world at the moment. Major ethnic and religeous groups are spread accross political borders created largely in the last 100-200 years, all vying to be top dog. Groups like the Palestinians and Kurds are scattered to the four winds so to speak and the Shiite/Sunnis want everything they can get their hands on. It is no surprise that the only countries in the mid-east that are semi stable are the ones that are run by authoritarian dictators/monarchs/presidents who crush all opposition. The easiest way to take the focus off their corruption and failures is to attack the decadent west.
You are right about Asia though - two of the worlds more stable Islamic states are in Asia- Malaysia and Indonesia. Unfortunately the radicals want to fuck that up too.
BTW, I spent time living in Theran in the 70's in the Shah's time and found the Iranians to be very intelligent and friendly enough, though arrogant. I sort of got the impression they didn't like anyone who wasn't Iranian

[Guest]

(Groundhog @ May 13 2007,15:11) In regard to the Muslim issue, it's hard to say what went wrong.  Islam has always been autocratic and warlike ... but the Islamic cities of the early Middle Ages (especially Baghdad which was the world's center of learning and commerce in the 9th and 10th centuries) were some of the best and most enlightened places in the world to live ... especially for Jews and Christians who had a special status as 'people of the book'  

The religious minorities living in Islamic cities in the middle ages were still second class citizens. I think you paint a rosier situation than existed at the time. It is a nice platitude to refer to Jews and Christians as "people of the book", but that is what they were called on the best days (and reflects the even worse discrimination faced by those not of the book, i.e. Zoroastrians, Sikhs and Hindus). Islamic jurisprudence still formed the basis of a very oppressive society. Religious minorities who were allowed to survive were called dhimmis and had to convert or pay a special tax, known as the jizya.

Further, the supposed "Golden Age of Islam" owes much to these dhimmis. Many of the contributors to mathematics and medicine during the reign of the Muslim caliphate were in fact not Muslim, but Zoroastrians and Jews. In fact, a disproportionate number were Jews, probably the most famous being Abu Imran Mussa bin Maimun ibn Abdallah al-Qurtubi al-Israili, known as Maimonades, whose family had to flee Moorish Spain after the Islamic government of Córdoba threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile. Maimonides' family, along with most other Jews, chose exile to more tolerant areas, never to return to Islamic Spain.

One may try to minimize the suffering that existed at the time by saying that Christian Europe was oppressive to Jews too. But it was not only the Jews who suffered under Islamic governments. Rather than singling out the Jews as Christian Europeans did, the Muslims did not consider your life as valuable unless you were Muslim. The result is that Zoroastrianism has nearly been totally wiped from the earth (and would have disappeared, had many not fled to India).

Unfortunately, Islam has never undergone a reformation. Islamists have never come to terms with the weight of their past crimes, and religious oppression still exists as an official policy of many Islamic-based governments to this day.

Please do not defend the indefensible.

[Groundhog]

(sangabriel @ May 13 2007,21:45) The religious minorities living in Islamic cities in the middle ages were still second class citizens. I think you paint a rosier situation than existed at the time. It is a nice platitude to refer to Jews and Christians as "people of the book", but that is what they were called on the best days (and reflects the even worse discrimination faced by those not of the book, i.e. Zoroastrians, Sikhs and Hindus).

This is true, and it's important to qualify by noting that the Islamic cities were some of the best and most diverse cities of the Middle Ages ... but that reflects the dismal and dangerous state of European cities; and the degree of violence and bigotry in general. They may have been second rate citizens in Arab cities, but at least, if they minded their business, they could live a fairly sedate and safe life.

It's worth noting that many were happy to see the Arabs get their comeuppance at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century.

The Jews had a harder time in Christian Europe, I believe, simply because in the first 300 years of Christianity the Christians were trying to distinguish themselves from Judaism. Christ was very orthodox Jewish -- an Essene -- and the rabbis and priest thought his followers to be stupid, lower class and erroneous in their interpretation of the Talmud (which was generally correct). Christians were pretty insecure in their religion prior to Emporer Constantine.

And the rabbis especially disliked the fact that Paul was allowing Christian 'Jews' to convert without being circumcised ... a fairly popular enticement for adult males (don't you think?). I recall that there is one story where he is called before Peter to explain himself... even Christians thought he was pushing the envelope.

Snick, I do think we need to question why some colonial subjects seem to have thrown off horrible abuse ...e.g., Korea was the richest and culturally most advanced Asian country in the 19th century, but was leveled and completely destroyed by the Japanese after 1911; China suffered horribly under Japanese rule ... yet both have bounced back to be power houses ... Africa, the Gulf States, and Latin America have never recovered, yet all had advanced cultures at one time.

[moe666]

The Zoroastrian religion is dead, since they do not take converts and both parents have to be born Zorastrians. Even in India its population is aging and not being replaced.