The First Crusade

[Guest]

I'm reading a book called The First Crusade. For me, at least, it's fascinating.

I didn't realize that the pope launched it to kill the muslims in Turkey and Israel, and on the way, killed Jews just for good measure. The pope justified it as a Holy War, where anyone participating would have all their sins absolved, no matter what they were - the identical reasons used in Islamic Jihad.

The tactics used were beyond brutal. Slicing babies apart, burning people on a spit, torturing old people, etc.

It's a superbly written book and frightening to know that history.

[Snick]

The First Crusade was lame.

My Second 'Favorite' Crusades was the Fourth Crusade, where the crusaders never even made it to the Holy Land, but decided to sack Constantinople, capital of the Christian Eastern Roman Empire.

And my all time favorite is the Children's Crusades of 1212 when 30,000 children decided to launch their own crusade. None got father then halfway to the Holy Land, and many ended up captured and enslaved by the Muslims they were off to fight.

( Who is the author ? - I will put the book on my Amazon list for next time - I have always had an interest in Byzantine history )

[Tomcat]

(ziggystardust @ May 11 2007,21:26) The tactics used were beyond brutal. Slicing babies apart, burning people on a spit, torturing old people, etc.

Nothings changed much then .

humans are just nasty. How many people were burnt alive at Dresden for instance..

[stogie bear]

(Tomcat @ May 11 2007,22:57) Humans are just nasty...

Wise words.

[jimslim]

all wars are justified in the name of religion thats one thing that never changes

[allstar88]

the muslim world like to dig up the crusaders history to stoke up hatred and fear towords the west

[Guest]

(allstar88 @ May 12 2007,04:50) the muslim world like to dig up the crusaders history to stoke up hatred and fear towords the west

Yes, I agree.

[qwerty]

not all wars are religion based. a few going on now are oli based.
and that comes from the mouth of an american in the oil business!

[donnnnnny]

(Tomcat @ May 11 2007,23:57)

(ziggystardust @ May 11 2007,21:26) The tactics used were beyond brutal. Slicing babies apart, burning people on a spit, torturing old people, etc.

Nothings changed much then .

humans are just nasty. How many people were burnt alive at Dresden for instance..

how many were burnt in the east end of london coventy burmingham manchester etc

[kartika]

"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it", No truer words have ever been spoken.
And by the way Snick, they tried to sack Constantinople on the People's Crusade, (the one before the first Crusade, or the warm-up Crusade as I like to call it) when Peter the Hermit refused to wait for the rest of the army to arrive. He lead his religeously blinded peasants  on to be slaughtered at Doryleum in central Turkey. I too find great interest in the Crusades. Maybe we should start a new thread called " All Things Fucked in the Name of Religeon"

[Snick]

(kartika @ May 12 2007,20:31) Maybe we should start a new thread called " All Things Fucked in the Name of Religion"

No Forum is big enough for that !

( They tried to sack Constantinople on many occasions -- the Fourth is when they actually succeeded )

The History of the Crusades is a history of greed and evil...with not much actual religion in the mix.

The knights were mostly 2nd or 3rd sons out for land and fortune of their own. The soldiers were also out for loot,and the papal grant of absolution was for many the same as a pardon for previous crimes.

As for the techniques of war which included throwing dead bodies into wells or slinging them into cities on catapults....That wasn't much different then what the Europeans had been doing to each other for years.

The crusaders often attacked their 'allies' along the way.

[Guest]

I lived in Constantinople (Istanbul) for 2.5 yrs and so all those Christian/Muslim sites. Regrettably, I didn't know the history at that time. While it must have been grander back then, it is still an unbelievably beautiful city and country. There is no greater waterway in the world than the Bosphorus Sea for visual splendor.

This is my 2nd Crusades book, but I think I'll go through them all now.

And how about the Inquisitions? Another great Christian launch into killing those infidels the Muslims, and Christians, and pretty much anybody people wanted revenge on.

...and we wonder why the Muslims hate Christians, imagine that, we only tried to kill them all off for about 800 years or so.

[Guest]

(ziggystardust @ May 12 2007,22:12) ...and we wonder why the Muslims hate Christians, imagine that, we only tried to kill them all off for about 800 years or so.

"We" may not all be Christian. So try to avoid displacing your own guilt onto the rest of us infidels.

By the way, those Muslim crazies would want to kill your submissive ass even if there had not been religious wars hundreds of years ago.

For the brilliant academic in you, before you invoke the crusades-of-a-thousand-years-ago-for-the-fucked-uped-ness-of-the-Muslim-world today, you may try to consider that the fuckers continue to kill innocent Thai schoolteachers and Buddhist monks in Narathiwat and Yala provinces. When was the last time these Thai women and old men carried the cross to Jerusalem?

Muslim intolerance IS NOT YOUR FAULT. So stop your self-flagellating masochism.

If you want a debate about your ridiculous assertion that "we only tried to kill them all off for about 800 years or so", well then, I am game.

[Groundhog]

(ziggystardust @ May 11 2007,21:26) I didn't realize that the pope launched it to kill the muslims in Turkey and Israel, and on the way, killed Jews just for good measure.

A more fundamental motivation for the crusades (why Pope Alexander II made the decision to promote the crusades) was that the 800s and 900s had both converted the Visigoths, Magyars, Slavs, and other tribes made up mainly of warriors to Christianity, but they kept fighting (with each other). In the two centuries before, Islamic armies had conquered all the way up into France and were threatening to take all of Europe (on their way to taking Constantinople by the back door). They were eventually pushed back so only all of Spain was Arabic, but the Christians were afraid of being taken over.

So the Pope killed two birds with one stone -- got the Christian warriors to do something but kill each other and steal from the populace; and directed them to push the Arabs back from the Holy Lands (and by the way, get them out of the rest of Europe too, while you're at it)

[Snick]

A good book on Byzantine history is, "A Short History of Byzantium"
http://www.amazon.com/Short-H....&sr=1-1

This is a condensed version of the 3volume set.

---
I have to agree sangabriel, The muslims hate us for a lot of reasons, but I belonging to the belief thats its self-hatred. The Muslim world has contributed NOTHING in the last 100+ years. No achievements, cultural, scientific or economic. They are pissed off that they are being left behind, not just by the West but by Asia also. Look at what Japan has done in 60 years, Korea in 40, and China in the last 20. Is there any Muslim state that can match that ? The only one close is Malaysia...and thats because its the ethnic Chinese who own the businesses.

This is even part of Al-Quaeda's Mantra - that they have to destroy the West before they can fix there own problems at home.

And the idea that Muslims are 'retaliating' for something done 800 years ago and would otherwise be peaceful is hogwash. Look at what the Afican muslims are doing to non-muslim Africans in Sudan, Nigeria, etc...

And the inquisition (which was a low point in humanity) was still a part of the 'reconquest', when Spain Reconquered all of Iberia from the Muslim moors. Do you really think the Moorish conquest of Iberia was peaceful and unbloodied.

Anybody can find a grievance in history to justify war if thats what they set out to to do.