Is this true?

[Guest]

We're all agreeing. The issue is "relative".

I just read a nice big thick book by Patrick Califia called Sex Changes which has a couple of sections on TG bashing in the US; I mean physically bashing and killing.

That kind of thing is unheard of in Thailand. And Mai-Kee, I go to ALL the top restaurants and bars in Bangkok, with ONLY LBs, and I have never heard or even seen a condescending comment, and believe me, I am watchful.

However, where you are correct is on the upper-class of Thailand, which is well documented. The upper-class, although they don't "care", will not truly "respect" LBs because of their image. Even then, it is not a generality.

No f'g way you can say Thailand is not the best place in the world for TGs. How many places in the world are LBs accepted in rural, hard working, farm-boy, families? Try that in the US or Canada. No f'g way. Where in the world can you go to bars and restaurants, as I do, with LBs? None that I know of. Where do you see LBs working malls, salons, about every corner? Unless I'm blind, only Thailand.

It's all relative. But I do conceed even Thailand is not perfect. But we're not talking about perfection here.

There never will be John Lennon's imagine world, but for today's world, Thailands treatment of LBs / TGs is No.1 (relatively).

[Mai-Kee]

No f'g way you can say Thailand is not the best place in the world for TGs. How many places in the world are LBs accepted in rural, hard working, farm-boy, families? Try that in the US or Canada. No f'g way. Where in the world can you go to bars and restaurants, as I do, with LBs? None that I know of. Where do you see LBs working malls, salons, about every corner? Unless I'm blind, only Thailand.

I don't say that Thailand is not a good place. For sure it is and the reason is as I said: 1. There are so many. 2. Thais just don't care about it. And both reasons are much likely connected. When you mention that they are so accepted in rural areas, etc. it's because - again as I said - it's the place where they come from and I wont go into details about the reasons of the acceptance there. Thai society is very conservative, hypocrite and xenophobic. Fringe groups of whatever colour or origin definitely dont have a good standing - and that didn't change to the better when the Thaksin boys took over.
It's for sure that middle and upper class Thais perceive lb's as some "untouchable caste" - actually quite comparable to what you find in India. They are parias in Thai society and I would really recommend if you get the chance to talk to the Thai target group I described and turn the conversation to that matter and just see what they say. You might be surprised. Believe me, I have made so many experiences like that and it's a kind of an eye opener concerning the popular opinion of a tolerant society in Thailand and lb's are really just a minor example of that.
Lb's having jobs as hairdressers, sales people in various shops or even jobs in minor management positions unfortunately don't prove the contrary. Those are the places where the Thais want to have them - if they want them at all................

MK

[Guest]

Like it or not, any society confronted with the unknown will shun and condemn it. It's a universal reaction to what we don't understand. A very long time ago I didn't understand homosexuality and was pretty derogatory about the gay people I saw on the street. (I lived in San Francisco and there were more than a few flaming queens there.)

I started a new job and one of my new associates, a very highly trained professional, and I got to know each other pretty well at work. After a while he invited me to his home where I met his significant other who happened to be male. I respected this guy a lot and that opened the way for me to understand that people find each other, fall in love, live with each other, have wonderful lives together, but occasionally happen to have the same physical gender. That experience with a single gay couple lead to a much deeper appreciation of relationships in general and, of course, understanding what gay relationships really mean.

In those days I was totally and completely into women, married to one, in the process of raising children. I had no clue then about the direction in which I would evolve but I have no doubt that my close association with a gay couple opened channels in my head. Eventually that allowed me to understand there is a much bigger universe of people out there that are potential friends, lovers, and perhaps mates.

The point of this ramble is my personal experience is a small example of what will happen in time to many more people. As the general population becomes more knowledgeable and accustomed to our favorite women so will come more acceptance. Just as gayness has now actually come into a sort of vogue as people are exposed to gay people more and more, so I suspect that acceptance of transgender people will gradually become the norm. It's really all a matter of education and exposure. Fortunately, electronic media pushes us faster and faster toward a more universal experience. It isn't great now but things will get better.

Like Stogie, I firmly feel that our reality is what we choose to make it and I choose to believe that this is the way things will eventually be.

[Guest]

Yep, almost same experience for me.

What I find interesting now is that before I used to look at gays or TGs and judge them for that.

Now I look at them, say serving in a restaurant and mall, and judge them for their good service, or not, vs thinking about "jeez, he's gay, or she's a LB".

Sites like this, internet in general, and society generally growing to accept more and more minorities will make this better over a very, very long time. But guys like Bush and Thaksin don't exactly help.

Mai-Dee is certainly correct that Thai society is complex, and what you see is not what you get. But my experience so far, is that on this topic it's far better than other societies, and granted, far from perfect.

While people are ok, the gov't is actually one of the worse ones, with things like Universities not permitting gays as students to be teachers (only heteros can teach, duh?), or cops picking up LBs to get cash (vs ladies), LBs not allowed in some hotels, bars, Thailand being still a country where after the last surgery, you can't change your sex on your passport. Discrimination like that is illegal in many countries, but in Thailand, discrimination can and is openly practiced at times.

[Looker]

.... LBs not allowed in some hotels, bars, Thailand being still a country where after the last surgery, you can't change your sex on your passport. Discrimination like that is illegal in many countries, but in Thailand, discrimination can and is openly practiced at times.

Well..how many LBs you see working at Post Offices, Hotels, Banks, Department Stores, Universities, Government Offices, etc.. back to Canada, or US or Europe??

[Guest]

Hello...

See sometimes this type of prejudice, the one targeted to TGs in general, is very explicit, I dont know how things are in Thailand, but if they write that banner in any hotel in the North and South American Continent, I am very sure that people could easily sue the responsible.

In Canada, thats considered major prejudice, and im sure it can become a big problem for the company or establishment that post something like that...

In Brazil, there is a federal faw that protects GBLT people, including TSs, CDs and others.

Now, we hardly see TG people working in big companies because most TGs lack education and unfortunatelly without some type of degree/diploma its very hard to find good jobs.

I was just impressed that from what i see on the TV and what we hear about Thailand is that Thailand is a paradise for TSs and LadyBoys, and I just discovered (thru the postings in here) that its not.

Thanks,
Kate

PS: sorry for this little posting, I am very very tired and sleepy!

[post-op lover]

Hmm, I need to do field research in Thailand and answer these weighty questions. Who wants to hire me?!

[Looker]

In Canada, thats considered major prejudice, and im sure it can become a big problem for the company or establishment that post something like that...

In Brazil, there is a federal faw that protects GBLT people, including TSs, CDs and others.

Hi Kate!

We can have all the laws in the world we want. However, in the western world to great majority of full-time TS I see working are only employed in the sex industry!
So, discrimination can go well ahead of laws

I still see Thailand as a relatively fair environment for TS, that's my feeling.

[Guest]

Kate,

I just thought of the ultimate way to judge Thailand on this topic.

I only like LBs now. For sex, and for my long-term potential partner, and a lot of my friends, including the other morons like me on this forum!

I have decided after a lot, lot, lot of world-wide living and travel, that Thailand is the only country I can live in happily. There is zero hesitation on that. I can first, choose a partner easily, and second, do whatever I want without getting beat up, sneared at, or barred from other friendships or family, and finally, have other friends doing the same.

I am Canadian.

To me, that is the ultimate judgement. And I think there are quite a few of us who might think like that.

[stogie bear]

However, in the western world to great majority of full-time TS I see working are only employed in the sex industry!

Absolute rubbish.

It may be the case that the "great majority" of TS girls that you see are prosatitutes in the west, but it's certainly NOT true that most Transexuals in the west are hookers. What a bizarre and insane notion.

I'm guessing that there are about at least 400,000 to 500,000 TGs in the US alone. Do you think most of them are hookers? How about Canada or Britain?

In the west the very apppearance of TGs precludes them from being hookers, but even if that were not the case I'm guessing that a lot less than 1% of TGs in the developed world of the west actually work as prostitutes.

I would further venture to guess that the percentage is similar in Thailand. In any given evening there are probably 200 to 300 (maybe mor) hooking ladyboys in Bangkok. But there are at least 50.000 of these transgendered people actually living in the city.

The sign on the hotel door is NOT prejudice. It's pinned on a tourist flop-house because the ladyboys that have been there in the past have almost always ripped off the tourists that are dumb enough to let them in.

Do you really think that a hotel owner has decided to put up that sign because he has a moral and/or cultural prejudice against ALL ladyboys?

Do you think the "No food & drinks" sign on the BTS train system is prejudicial against fat people? How about the 'Don't Litter' signs in Lumpini park? Are the "No Smoking" signs at the library just there to piss off the smokers and make them feel marginalized?

Of fucking course not. Wake up and get real.

If the 'ladyboys keep out' sign was slapped on a MacDonalds restaurant or a bus station then you'd have a case.

If I was a doss-house owner in Thailand with ladyboy skanks hassling my customers night after night I would do the same.

As for the prejudice in Brazil or Canada or elsewhere...

You can have all the rules and laws you want to. It won't make a fuck of a bit of difference...

You can't legislate human behaviour.

Changing the law doesn't change people. If you are dreaming that this insane political correctness will 'work eventually' then you are living in a world that is not overly concerned with reality.

Racism, prejudices and rejection surround us all the time and will never disappear as long as humans run things. Making it illegal and 'not nice' just pushes it underground where the real social dangers of prejudice simmer and burn.

If you take a TS girl to a 'Hi-So' restaurant of course you are gonna get disapproving looke. In much the same way that my country club doesn't like people coming in wearing jeans!

How can you interpret this as prejudice? And if you are offended then why take her there in the first place? Duh!

I'll wager any amount of money that Kui wouldn't raise any eyebrows whether she was in KFC or dining with the King!

The issues that face most ladyboys are individual ones that are confined to them and their families and partners.

Making it a general prejudice that involves anyone else is being sensationalistic and also unfairly dragging the rest of a generally un-interested nation into a distorted view of what they accept and don't accept.

If you think that people are prejudice in Thailand then anything they do can be interpreted as some kind of prejudice.

In fact they are prejudice here. And it works out very well. I don't go to their clubs and they don't come to mine. It's a great arrangement.

Forcing people to live together in this so called community 'melting pot' is a fucking stupid idea.

Each to his own I say - and most humans agree!

(Feel free to disagree!)  

[Looker]

However, in the western world to great majority of full-time TS I see working are only employed in the sex industry!

Absolute rubbish.

It may be the case that the "great majority" of TS girls that you see are prosatitutes in the west, but it's certainly NOT true that most Transexuals in the west are hookers. What a bizarre and insane notion.

I'm guessing that there are about at least 400,000 to 500,000 TGs in the US alone. Do you think most of them are hookers? How about Canada or Britain?

In the west the very apppearance of TGs precludes them from being hookers, but even if that were not the case I'm guessing that a lot less than 1% of TGs in the developed world of the west actually work as prostitutes.

And free to disagree I am

I think you are making a slight confusion between openly TS and closet TS, I/E who's living 100% of the day as a TS and who's living from 9PM to 6AM as a TS...BIG difference here..
Then I agree with you that there are millions of (closet) TS outthere!

I was born and been living in the western countries, and travelling back to Europe often, and let me tell you that I've almost never seen a TS walking around; not to mention seeying one in government offices, restaurants, banks, shops, dptm stores and so forth. So, where are they???

Call me blind if you like, but this is what I see

[Mai-Kee]

1. Do you really think that a hotel owner has decided to put up that sign because he has a moral and/or cultural prejudice against ALL ladyboys?


2. If you take a TS girl to a 'Hi-So' restaurant of course you are gonna get disapproving looke. In much the same way that my country club doesn't like people coming in wearing jeans!
How can you interpret this as prejudice? And if you are offended then why take her there in the first place? Duh!

In fact they are prejudice here. And it works out very well. I don't go to their clubs and they don't come to mine. It's a great arrangement.

Excellent polemics, Stogie!

ad 1.) I would really recommend that next time you see this sign, you ask the guy. I would bet any amount that OF COURSE he means ALL lb's!!!

ad 2.) Here you have a point and the comparison with the country club works - but only if I wouldn't be a "member" there! You get my point?! The question is how to integrate my lb-gf into the lifestyle/world I am living in in Thailand? And that simply doesn't work! Of course you don't have this problem if you don't mingle, but what can you do if you are living there and have business with those people, have to stay in their cercles, etc. I tell you it's just not possible - and I'm not talking of some Casanova hookers, I'm talking about any nice looking passable tgirl, having a job in a shoe-shop or whatever. Simply the fact that she is a lb, would be a showstopper for the Thais I'm talking of - and finally for your business as well.
Believe me, I actually made exactly this experience.
If you are businesswise not depending on them or at least are not forced to mingle with them, then of course you don't really have a problem. As you said - I don't go to their clubs, they don't go to mine! Perfect! But the denial of a fact, doesn't say that it's not there!

MK

[Looker]

The question is how to integrate my lb-gf into the lifestyle/world I am living in in Thailand? And that simply doesn't work! Of course you don't have this problem if you don't mingle, but what can you do if you are living there and have business with those people, have to stay in their cercles, etc. I tell you it's just not possible - and I'm not talking of some Casanova hookers, I'm talking about any nice looking passable tgirl, having a job in a shoe-shop or whatever. Simply the fact that she is a lb, would be a showstopper for the Thais I'm talking of - and finally for your business as well.

But why Mk, you want to tell me instred that if you go to..say..the Bankers' Club in Manhattan together with a LB nobody pay attention, and you won't have 99% of the members staring at you??

I don't know but you guys seem to be a bit excessive in this. I was in BKK one month ago and went on sunday morning with a non-passable LB (a non-worker one) to a famous coffe and cake shop in the sukhumvit area (forgot the name) and patronized mostly by filthy rich Thais.

Well, I thought I would have been the object of attention, and ready to roll in my hall of shame

N O B O D Y gave a shit! We were both treated with extreme respect and even given a complimentary small bag of cookies to take away! Maybe because I am a farang..who knows?!?!

In fact, the only people who stared at us on the way out were two young farangs who were drooling after her!!

[stogie bear]

I would bet any amount that OF COURSE he means ALL lb's!!!

I bet that he would say "ALL lb's' also. Because he knows full well that no sane normal ladyboy that wasn't a prostitute would be seen dead in or near a hotel that has a sign like this on their elevator entrance!

The sign is aimed at ladyboy hookers. No other kind of ladyboy would be at a place like this.

...but what can you do if you are living there and have business with those people, have to stay in their cercles, etc.

Like I have said before... I haven't experienced the same problems. Kui has been accepted by all the people and bosses I have worked with in Thailand. She has been embraced by all my friends also without exception.

Yes - the membership only correlation was an example. But we all belong to social clubs whether or not we carry a card to prove it. Some of us can drift between clubs and fit almost anywhere. Some of us cannot and stick to what we are most familar with.

I can't wait till you come to Thailand again. We have much to talk about together! I am enjoying this thread immensely.

I was in BKK one month ago and went on sunday morning with a non-passable LB (a non-worker one) to a famous coffe and cake shop in the sukhumvit area (forgot the name) and patronized mostly by filthy rich Thais.

Well, I thought I would have been the object of attention, and ready to roll in my hall of shame

N O B O D Y gave a shit! We were both treated with extreme respect and even given a complimentary small bag of cookies to take away! Maybe because I am a farang..who knows?!?!

In fact, the only people who stared at us on the way out were two young farangs who were drooling after her!!

This has been my experience also without exception. In fact I had more troubles and tension with my black girlfriend in Dallas, Texas than I have ever had excorting ladyboys in Bangkok.

[Mai-Kee]

I was in BKK one month ago and went on sunday morning with a non-passable LB (a non-worker one) to a famous coffe and cake shop in the sukhumvit area (forgot the name) and patronized mostly by filthy rich Thais.

N O B O D Y gave a shit! We were both treated with extreme respect and even given a complimentary small bag of cookies to take away! Maybe because I am a farang..who knows?!?!

You don't really get my point. OF COURSE you don't have a problem in Thailand going out to a cafe with your lb gf, because people are used to them and as I said they absolutely don't give a shit - as long as they are not involved. (lthough my experience at the "87" was different - but that doesn't happen that often).
I was hitting at the involvement of your lb-gf with your social crowd which consits of very straight (homophobic) farang business men and some (influencial) Thais in the finance and investment business - some of them even politically involved, as you always are when your influencial in Thailand - and believe me that's so not gonna work!!!
And of course I don't mean the average Thai round the corner and also not some managers at some local garment factories.
And I'm of course also aware that that's aint gonna work anywhere in the world - I only wanted to point out that Thailand in that case is no difference!

MK
PS:....and Stogie, we really have to discuss this in depth over some nicely draught Changs next time I'm over!
PPS:.... and don't tell me you stopped drinking!