Long term relationship

[Guest]

from Harvard..... isn't this paragraph enough to put this all to rest and realize that we will never actually know? they are saying as of late April that no one knows for sure and that a 'smoking gun' will never be found; that is good enough for me.



  " Despite the hype, research has not been conclusive. Scientists have been unable to replicate the results of any studies directly linking genetics to homosexuality, and many doubt that a "smoking gun" will ever be found. Instead, the emerging scientific consensus is that both biological and environmental factors, working in concert, determine sexuality. As science writer Matt Ridley put it in this year's book Nature via Nurture, "The absurd distinction between reversible nurture and inevitable nature has now been well and truly buried.""

Harvard Univ. weighs in on Nature VS Nurture

[Guest]

JaiDee,

I certainly respect your opinion but I think the scientific evidence that gender behavior is based in physiology and not nurture is strongly against you. The following is partial text from an abstract of a scientific paper in Zhou, J.-N., et. al. (1995) A Sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature, 338: 68-70:

"...we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc (a specific anatomic brain location) in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder."

Also see the later paper Kruijver, F.P.M., et. al. (2000) Male to Female Transsexuals have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus. J. Clin. Enddocrinol. Metab., Vol. 85, No. 6: 2034-2041 which corroborates Zhou's earlier work. There is clearly something very different about a ladyboy which makes her brain resemble a genetic female brain much more closely. Her behavior is almost certainly learned but only because she is programmed to want to learn to behave like the females around her.

Sorry if I got off on too technical a tangent here gents but the science is real. Absolute scientific proof of anything is rare as hen's teeth but the theories get stronger and stronger.

[Guest]

"The absurd distinction between reversible nurture and inevitable nature has now been well and truly buried."

 no, your reports are not too technical but if they are 5 and 10 years old respectively why haven't they yet been proven as fact and made mainstream news reports? why does this Harvard study show that the smart people on both sides are still at odds and no one really knows and we may never know the actual truth?

at least this topic creates controversy and that is cool, but I think, like the abortion debate or certain religous debates, that there is no real provable answer to this and the page I found from the Harvard paper backs that up.

[PigDogg]

My Webpage


http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/TransgenderASIA/index.htm

If you enjoy academic research.

[Tomcat]

we may never know the actual truth?

1)
in Science there are actually no truths , only theories which are usually overturned .. Science offers the most rational explanations at the current time , there are always different schools of thought though. No theory by definition can be hewn in stone. All Scientific theories must be falsifiable otherwise its not Science.

The sands are shifting every single day as new studies are made and even the book i quoted left one reviewer with a flea buzzing in his ear.

2)
Drugs are now being developed that put off old age and keep you looking 25 for a long time. Within 10 years you will buy the holy grail over the counter for a tidy sum. When shes fifty she will look 26.

So the idea is that your Ladyboy takes the drugs and you do the best to decrease your own lifespan ( chainsmoking, drinking, whatever you like... thats the upside).

That way when she is on the turn you are already in the urn.

[Guest]

Well, 42 subjects for theorizing the history of TGs through the centuries is likely not sufficient, but it is very interesting. On this nurture thing, I hope everyone realizes there were LBs in ancient times, in virtually every civilization on earth. The idea that this is new is completely wrong. I just find it really, really hard to imagine ancient, macho civilizations "nurturing" gays or transgenders, it just doesn't make sense.

The truth has got to be both. Nature and nurture, combined differently for each person. I attended the first ever queer conference in Asia, with all the gurus present. They started down this discussion of nature vs nurture and a FtM Transgender stood up and said, "Why don't you just ask me? These studies are crap."

For my twins, it's crystal clear it was nature, they do not have a memory (which starts at about 3 or 4?), of not wanting to be a woman. I have another friend who became a LB only at 16 (maybe nurture?).

Somewhat related, I think your question JaeDee was excellent.

For LB lovers, are we nature or nurture. Well, ask me, as the FtM TG said! For me, I think there is an element of nature supported by nurture. I was never satisfied for long periods of time having sex with a woman; meaning, I got bored after a while. However, with LBs, I don't seem to have that problem. Let's call that nature. However, with no LBs available (like in Canada), that mental thought in me could never actually come out, because I didn't even know that LBs existed until about 1992. Now, living in Thailand, I can never go back to ladies, LBs are it forever. So maybe that is nurture because of availability?

[PigDogg]

They have 2 bars now 1 in soi4 and 1 in soi 5

Hey Brick, What's the name of the Soi 4? Any/many ladyboys there?

[Tomcat]

The truth has got to be both. Nature and nurture,

Yes it probably is a mix as you brain has to work in Tandem with your Genes. My feeling for Nature was also down to experience in my own Family. My own feeling is that the balance of argument will still tilt more in favour of nature as time goes on.

I read a lot of Science week in week out and thats just how it seems to me at the moment........When i see a new study ill let you guys know.. either way Nu or Na

The most recent study i menioned have was conducted with identical and non identical twins. The probability of an Identical twin being gay is more than 50%.... well over the usual occurance. Twelve sets of twins were studied .

But for sure the theories will change just as the understanding of DNA and Genes is changing. Also very liitle is known about the Neurology .....they say the brain/consiousness is the last big frontier in Science

[kaos]

I just started few weeks ago a relation with one working lb (Ink from KC3).
She left the work and stopped to take hormones (I asked her to stop coz I like active lb and also I would like to see how he looks like).
Of course I give her money, she doesnt have any other income... but i spent some time with her family and I can say they really need money.
I asked her to look for a job coz im not going to support her forever and she is now lookin for a job... I really believe that anyone needs love ... but if you live in day by day life your first priority is for sure money... the lbs i know most of them need to collect a bunch of baht to have something to eat for the day... most of them send really money to the family coz they need for survive... I dont blame even my girlfriend if shes doing this only for money... i saw where she lived before and belive me its really hard.

[Looker]

I just started few weeks ago a relation with one working lb (Ink from KC3).
She left the work and stopped to take hormones (I asked her to stop coz I like active lb and also I would like to see how he looks like).
Of course I give her money, she doesnt have any other income... but i spent some time with her family and I can say they really need money.
I asked her to look for a job coz im not going to support her forever and she is now lookin for a job... I really believe that anyone needs love ... but if you live in day by day life your first priority is for sure money... the lbs i know most of them need to collect a bunch of baht to have something to eat for the day... most of them send really money to the family coz they need for survive... I dont blame even my girlfriend if shes doing this only for money... i saw where she lived before and belive me its really hard.

Hey..what you say is unfortunately very true. In Thailand, as much as in Indonesia, Philippines etc..etc..MANY PEOPLE ARE REALLY POOR
I've been helping kids in both Thailand and Phils since over 10 years by donating as little as USD 20 a month and I hope I was able to make a difference in their lives.
Needless to say that what you mention it's correct. She will not have to rely on your generosity only and move her ass (pun not intended) in finding herself a job.
But again, by reading at many postings here, it's not that clear to me where the border line is.
Some of you are writing NOT to "donate" a single cent to the ladies when the next posting are claiming to have them co-living at home and, obviously, being a sponsor for their lives

[Guest]

but i spent some time with her family and I can say they really need money...... i saw where she lived before and belive me its really hard.

Life is hard for everyone and we all need more cash.... I didn't see anyone giving ME money  when my life was an absolute hell 7 or 8 years ago, I had to pull myself up by the bootstraps and get rolling, not count on someone else to support me.

 No one should get a dime unless they are doing some type of work.... I suppose fucking could be considered work.

[gunslinger]

Judging by some of the punters in Obs, I'd say its bloody hard work

[Guest]

I should have qualified my remarks to mean all ADULTS..... I agree with Looker that young kids should be helped and I even have a little angel in the slums of BKK who I have been helping since 1998 and it feels great whenever we get together with a translator and exchange stories.

 Adults have to make their own way in this world, sorry...... Kui grew up in a shithole in Rayong but is now making more than most Thai people and has never sold her body once and doesn't go looking for handouts. why can she do it while others rely on the generosity of westerners?

 one word;  Job.

[Looker]

I should have qualified my remarks to mean all ADULTS..... I agree with Looker that young kids should be helped and I even have a little angel in the slums of BKK who I have been helping since 1998 and it feels great whenever we get together with a translator and exchange stories.

 Adults have to make their own way in this world, sorry...... Kui grew up in a shithole in Rayong but is now making more than most Thai people and has never sold her body once and doesn't go looking for handouts. why can she do it while others rely on the generosity of westerners?

 one word;  Job.

Well..it seems the thread it has moved in a more sociologic direction
Indeed, I've seen far too many example of people just being lazy and not stretching their hands further than what it takes to grasp the mango or the pineapple on the table..go to Philippines and then you tell me!
We all have a brain of equal size, two arms and two legs..'nuff said!

[Mai-Kee]

Very interesting thread! Just my 2 cents:
1. Re: Nurture vs. nature
I absolutely believe (just out of my empiristic approach... LOL - no scientific proof though) that it's a combination of both. We are all different, so some develop earlier - given a genetic predisposition (which I personally believe plays a minor role here) - according to their social surrounding and some later - again according the world they're born into.
Some TS - like Zigs amazing twins - are born and, it looks like, immediately raised and therefore accepted as what they are - some, especially in the west, switch to their real repressed gender in their early 40ies (that's statistically the majority in the west).
Can you imagine what life they must have had before?? Hard to believe they all didn't go completely nuts. And of course they have no chance at all to look even close to what we would call cute or beautiful. A transition when you're already a fully developed man and lived as such half of your life has often tragic results. But still, if they're happy then, it's the only way - and sometimes it's the only way anyway not to run into a suicide. Which leads me to the next point:

2. Re: JD: "Adults have to make their own way in this world, ... one word: job"
Well, what do you think, how much chance do those people have to find a job. Thinking of somebody in the early 40ies, who had quite a good job and who turns out to be a TS. First thing is, he gets fired. Somebody might say now, that's not possible, we have rights especially in the west who protect those people.... Sorry, but that's rubbish!!!
They get fired, believe me - and of course not because of this, there are always reasons to fire somebody! Ok, so what they're gonna do then? Looking like Ozzie Osbourne in his worst years. Who want's to employ somebody like that? They're lucky if they have skills to get a job working from home, but not many have....
And secondly, coming back to what I said in (1). Everybody is different! So, if Kui did make it, great, but that doesn't mean that others can. Some might not be that bright, don't have a character which is strong enough, are maybe labile, or too sensitive, or whatever... and that doesn't go only for LB's of course. (And also of course I'm talking here only about those who want, but simply can't - not about those suckers who are just sitting and waiting that somebody moves over the cash!)
Only because one guy can do it, doesn't mean that all can. It actually doesn't mean anything, because others might be able to do different things, which are not so easily transferrable into cash. I know quite a lot of people who studied their ass off, work in the science field and earn absolute crap - compared to the stupid dentist next door with a jaguar, a boat and a bunch of chicks besides his ugly wife!
We should notice that we are all living in a VERY individual world - even if this world would love to have us as conform as possible (because, that's much easier to market) and we should be proud of it and stay up for that! Communism failed completely here (funny nobody learned from that) and capitalism comes along the same way, is a bit more subtile in his approach, kind of a big mouth guy: "You all have a chance, you all can make it - but only according to the rules and if you can't follow, then you're out....ooops...sorry!", does just the same!
There must be different rules for different people! Sounds complicated - well, who said that simplification is the solution??

MK