Police Crackdown on Soi 6 Bars

[deepthroat]

According to the Pattaya Daily News:


Crime Suppression Police raided another €˜short-time€™ bar in North Pattaya on Saturday night. Following this week€™s raid on the Mandarin Bar in Soi 6, officers instigated a similar investigation on the nearby Soho Bar.

Pattaya, the 9th of October 2010 [PDN]: At approximately 11:00pm on Saturday, Lieutenant Colonel Choosak Kaytong (Crime Suppression Special Unit officer) and his team conducted a sting operation at the Soho Bar (A-Go-Go) on Soi 6, off Pattaya Beach Road.

In similar circumstances to Thursday€™s raid on the Mandarin Bar, officers using a foreign national as an undercover agent infiltrated the Soho Bar, after reports surfaced that the establishment may be offering prostitution services by way of €˜short-time€™ rooms located above the main bar.

Following the setup, whereby the undercover agent requested and paid for the use of the aforementioned sexual services, officers raided the premises and arrested eight women, including the bar manager, Mrs. Pornsawan Iammala [33].

The seven arrested staff/Go-Go dancers were found to be all under 20-years-of-age, while Mrs. Iammala reluctantly confessed to being the owner and manager of the establishment. Police investigating the incident were reluctant to provide the media with any information pertaining to evidence confiscated in the raid other than the information of those arrested.

The seven employees of the establishment have been charged with €˜prostitution and/or aiding in the prostitution of others€™, while Mrs Iammala has been charged with being the €˜owner/manager of an illegal prostitution business€™.

Editor€™s Note: As with the case of the Mandarin Bar earlier this week, the officers involved in the raid are part of the Bangkok €“ Crime Suppression Special Unit €“ Police. This may constitute a show of force by the unit undermining local authorities and/or promoting the new commander of the national division. High-ranking Royal Thai Police officers are rotated in their positions on a yearly basis (every October), including divisional heads.

[Snick]

Pattaya One News reported that all the girls (and two very passable LB -ed) were over 18 and therefore legal.

Another Soi 6 €œShort-Time€ Bar has been raided by Police. A raid of the Soho Bar took place late on Saturday Night by the Anti Human-Trafficking Division of the Royal Thai Police. Police Lieutenant Colonel Choosak, a Deputy Superintendant of the unit led the raid and arrested 7 employees and the manager, Khun Pornsawan aged 33. On this occasion a foreign operative was once again used to confirm that sexual services in exchange for money were available at the bar. The arrestees were taken to Pattaya Police Station and the manager was charged with allowing prostitution to occur at the premise. The female employees were all over the age of 18 and were therefore allowed to work in the bar. One of the girls, who was involved in the initial sting was charged under the Prostitution Prevention and Suppression Act and the others received a small fine and were later released. Other Soi 6 Bar Owners are now waiting to see who is next in this mini bar crackdown.

[deepthroat]

More crappy news about police actions in Pattaya. This from (again) the Pattaya Daily News, October 12:

Pattaya Beach Road Subject to Prostitution Purge by Police

Local police on Monday night moved to purge Pattaya€™s notorious Beach Road area of problematic €˜freelance€™ prostitutes and lady-boys, according to an official release.

Pattaya, the 11th of October 2010 [PDN]: At approximately midnight on Monday, Colonel Nunthawut Suwanla-ong (Pattaya Police Superintendent) along with a team of officers conducted an inspection of the Pattaya Beach Road promenade.

The inspection was undertaken after numerous reports and complaints were received by local authorities regarding the prevalence of €˜freelance€™ prostitutes and lady-boys in the area. Many of these complaints pertained to tourists and locals being bothered, hassled and even robbed by the aforementioned groups, while walking the promenade during the evening.

In the inspection of the area, officers were able to detain and arrest some 50 offenders, both female prostitutes and lady-boys, who had gathered between North and South Pattaya. Reports indicate that many more of the loitering prostitutes managed to flee the scene upon being informed of the arrests.

Background, drug and criminal checks will now be performed on all of the 50 arrested offenders in an attempt to apprehend those who may be involved in further criminal acts.

Editor€™s note: This is not the first time Pattaya police have attempted a purge on the Beach Road €˜freelancers€™, it seems to be at least a biannual inspection. Most offenders end up being released with a Bt500 fine without so much as a mark against their names.

Unfortunately, the nature of the €˜game€™ means that by taking Bt500 of these relatively desperate working women/lady-boys they inherently return to the very same act as before, in an even more desperate state. However, the local authorities achieve quantifiable results in performing such inspections, with Bt25,000+ into the proceeds of crime €˜column€™ to impress their superiors.

If authorities are determined to purge €˜freelance€™ prostitution from public areas such as Beach Road, thereby confining the already illegal business to the local bars and/or Walking Street, simply arresting all the offenders is not an appropriate course of action.

Even prison sentences will not help the matter, largely for the desperation reasons already established, but also the Thai prison system is already notoriously overcrowded and not sufficient to house hundreds more relatively minor offenders.

Targeting the customers that use these women/lady-boys however would achieve marked results in a relatively short period. Eventually customers, foreign or otherwise, will not take the risk of interacting with the €˜freelancers,€™ providing the fine/punishment is significant; therefore, the business is stifled in the public arenas and confined largely to the local bars and clubs.

[manarak]

correct.

I have done very thorough research of Thailand's sex laws.

In short:
- prostitution is not illegal in Thailand, if done discreetly (that's what the law says). This is open to interpretation, but we can assume that a guy and a girl coming together at a bar can be considered as being discrete.
- the legal age for sex without proof of consent is 18.
- the legal age for working is 18, although customers need to be 20 yo

- sex on a bar's premises is illegal, since this constitutes pimping, but the barfine system where the girl goes with the customer is ok.

[Snick]

yes, both bars were busted for having short time rooms upstairs.

[azza33]

Or forgetting to pay their "taxes"

[Road Runner]

I am uterly astonished at your post Manarak!

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21) - prostitution is not illegal in Thailand, if done discreetly (that's what the law says)

PROSTITUTION IS ILLEGAL IN THAILAND

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21) This is open to interpretation, but we can assume that a guy and a girl coming together at a bar can be considered as being discrete.

All laws are open to interpretation  -  Thailand is better than most at a very lose and very flexible interpretation of their laws.
But meeting a girl/ladyboy/rentboy in a bar   -  which by any definition is a public place  - and arranging sex for payment is not discreet.
I would love to see you attempt the use of the defence that you were;-  Doing it discreetly.      At least it may raise a laugh in the court.

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21) - the legal age for sex without proof of consent is 18.

Your meaning here I think has become garbled.  Sex without consent is either assault or rape depending on the local law and/or circumstances.
What I assume you are refering to is that if the prostitute is under 18 the customer may face a fine or prosecution.
If the prostitute is over 18 then the customer is comitting no offence under Thai law.
But if you come from certain countries in the world then you may be committing an offence under the laws of your own country.   See my thread about Age of Consent

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21) - the legal age for working is 18, although customers need to be 20 yo

Again I think you have mixed up your meanings.
The minimum age for most employment in Thailand is 15  -  you will see 15 year old waitresses in some premises.

To work in a 'Place of entertainment'  the minimum age is 20 years old.
A place of entertainment is a bar or club but not places like restaurants with a band.
This law applies only to the owner/manager of the establishment NOT the customers

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21) - sex on a bar's premises is illegal, since this constitutes pimping, but the barfine system where the girl goes with the customer is ok.

ALL activities connected with prostitution are illegal.
That includes operation a brothel, provision of short time rooms etc.
The system of barfines is not specifically  covered in the laws  -  it is a legal grey area.
I'm sure if some hotshot lawyer got their teeth into barfines they could make a charge stick  -  but this is Thailand.


RR.

[rossco]

I have to agree about generalisations and misleading other Forum members.
From Wikpedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Prostitution in Thailand is illegal, although in practice it is tolerated and partly regulated. Prostitution is practiced openly throughout the country [1][2] Local officials with commercial interests in prostitution often protect the practice. Trafficking in women and children for prostitution is a serious problem. The precise number of prostitutes is difficult to assess; estimates vary widely and are subject to national and international controversy.[3] Since the Vietnam War, Thailand has gained international notoriety among travelers from many countries as a sex tourism destination

[manarak]

well, read the 1999 act on "suppression of prostitution" and you will find the act of prostituting oneself is not illegal, "unless done in an open and shameless manner, or in a way to cause nuisance to the public"

I don't make this up, it is written in the law.

PROSTITUTION IS ILLEGAL IN THAILAND

Cannot be illegal without a law banning it.

Find the law banning it, and I will agree.
I gave you my source of law (1999 act), please give me yours (no hearsay or "common knowledge" allowed - precise reference to the Law is required).

(manarak @ Oct. 13 2010,06:21)
- the legal age for sex without proof of consent is 18.

Your meaning here I think has become garbled. Sex without consent is either assault or rape depending on the local law and/or circumstances.
What I assume you are refering to is that if the prostitute is under 18 the customer may face a fine or prosecution.
If the prostitute is over 18 then the customer is comitting no offence under Thai law.
But if you come from certain countries in the world then you may be committing an offence under the laws of your own country. See my thread about Age of Consent

Nah... I didn't write "sex without consent", I wrote "sex without PROOF of consent", which are 2 totally different things.

When you have sex with an 18 year old girl, you don't have to prove consent, whereas if the girl is between 15 and 18, you better have rock solid proof that her Papa and Mama and girl herself all were ok with it! If not, the girl just has to say you reaped her, and you will have to prove consent (difficult to prove) or you will be in for a very hard time.

If the girl is over 18, she cannot just claim you raped her, she will need to bring some proof what she claims is true.

[manarak]

To work in a 'Place of entertainment' the minimum age is 20 years old.
A place of entertainment is a bar or club but not places like restaurants with a band.
This law applies only to the owner/manager of the establishment NOT the customers

I'd be interested to see the statute.
Can you please refer me?

I am always talking about bars of course.
I think the minimum age to work in such a place is 18, but this can only be done with the parent's consent, since thais cannot legally sign contracts on their own until they are 20 yo.
So employing people between 18 and 20 in a bar would result in them having no valid employement contract, except if the parents sign too.

[manarak]

(rossco @ Oct. 14 2010,10:14) I have to agree about generalisations and misleading other Forum members.
From Wikpedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Prostitution in Thailand is illegal, although in practice it is tolerated and partly regulated. Prostitution is practiced openly throughout the country [1][2] Local officials with commercial interests in prostitution often protect the practice. Trafficking in women and children for prostitution is a serious problem. The precise number of prostitutes is difficult to assess; estimates vary widely and are subject to national and international controversy.[3] Since the Vietnam War, Thailand has gained international notoriety among travelers from many countries as a sex tourism destination

Sir, I think writing "Prostitution in Thailand is illegal" is a misleading generalization.

There is no Law in Thailand that prevents people from selling their own body for sex in return for money.
(I am not talking about prostitution-related businesses, just about the act of prostitution itself).

Again, find the law and show it to me.

[manarak]

the prostitution act has been passed in 1996, not 1999 as I previously stated, sorry!

[manarak]

(rossco @ Oct. 14 2010,10:14) I have to agree about generalisations and misleading other Forum members.
From Wikpedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Prostitution in Thailand is illegal, although in practice it is tolerated and partly regulated. Prostitution is practiced openly throughout the country [1][2] Local officials with commercial interests in prostitution often protect the practice. Trafficking in women and children for prostitution is a serious problem. The precise number of prostitutes is difficult to assess; estimates vary widely and are subject to national and international controversy.[3] Since the Vietnam War, Thailand has gained international notoriety among travelers from many countries as a sex tourism destination

and if you are going to quote wikipedia, do so thoroughly:

The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996) (the €œProstitution Law€), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done €œin a promiscuous manner€. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a €œpromiscuous manner€ constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is. The crime of solicitation is vaguely defined.

This comes from the specific page
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand"

[Road Runner]

(manarak @ Oct. 14 2010,08:53) Find the law banning it, and I will agree.
I gave you my source of law (1999 act), please give me yours (no hearsay or "common knowledge" allowed - precise reference to the Law is required)

Hello Manarak,

Yes I was reading the same law;-   PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION OF PROSTITUTION ACT B.E. 2539 (1996)

Also have a look at  the Entertainment Places Act of 1966  -  I can't find a working link with the law itself but there are many references.   This one provides a brief resume  -  but I admit it may be wrong

I see it's a question of interpretation  -  also I wonder about the translation of the acts from Thai to English and it's effect on the meaning.  

I agree it does not say straight out that it is illegal but there is a penalty of 1000 Baht* for an offence.
The defentions do indicate public places and nuisance play a part in the commissioning of an offence but from experience these are subject to very wide interpretation.
(*I paid it once  -  not for me it was a friend of a friend who got picked up on Wireless Road and taken to Lumpini Police Station.)

Have a look at this article by Patcharawalai Wongboonsin, Ph.D who is from the Human Development & Migration Studies Centre, College of Population Studies, Chulalongkorn University.   Legislative Regimes against the Trafficking of Underage Prostitutes in Thailand
Halfway down the page he states;-   In 1996, the Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, or the 1996 Act, came into force to eliminate prostitution by making it an illegal activity.
I guess he is reading the act in it's original Thai text.

(manarak @ Oct. 14 2010,08:53) Nah... I didn't write "sex without consent", I wrote "sex without PROOF of consent", which are 2 totally different things.

When you have sex with an 18 year old girl, you don't have to prove consent, whereas if the girl is between 15 and 18, you better have rock solid proof that her Papa and Mama and girl herself all were ok with it! If not, the girl just has to say you reaped her, and you will have to prove consent (difficult to prove) or you will be in for a very hard time.

If the girl is over 18, she cannot just claim you raped her, she will need to bring some proof what she claims is true.

I see where we are differing  -  sex without consent or proof of consent is a different offence   -  Thai law is very similar to English law by the way and different to Napoleonic Code laws.

I believe your argument is about sex with under 18's.

Sect.8 does state;-  Any person who, in order to gratify his or her sexual desire or that of another person, has sexual intercourse or acts otherwise against a person over fifteen but not over eighteen years of age in a prostitution establishment, with or without his or her consent.

Consent or absence of it would not matter if the girl was under 18 years of age.
Yes you can legally have sex with a girl less than 18;-
IF the laws of your own country allow it.
IF it is not  in a prostitution establishment  -  they don't say what is or is not a place of prostitution and I'm not going to try and test that one.
Proof that no payment or favours have been exchanged in theory would be a defence but the law is very losely drafted (Sect.4) states it's prostitution if sex is;-  in return for money or any other benefit
You could write an entire thesis on what does or does not constitute benefits.

Again from Sect.8;-
IF the act under paragraph one is committed in relation to one's own spouse, and not to gratify the sexual desire of another person, the offender is not guilty..
Love the wording of that  -  in England it would say 'no offence would be committed'  -  in Thailand they say you are not guilty!
So you have committed an offence having sex with your own spouse but you are not guilty.

The whole act is either poorly written and/or badly translated  -  I would personally prefer not to become a legal precedent.

RR.

[manarak]

Have a look at this article by Patcharawalai Wongboonsin, Ph.D who is from the Human Development & Migration Studies Centre, College of Population Studies, Chulalongkorn University.   Legislative Regimes against the Trafficking of Underage Prostitutes in Thailand
Halfway down the page he states;-   In 1996, the Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, or the 1996 Act, came into force to eliminate prostitution by making it an illegal activity.
I guess he is reading the act in it's original Thai text.

Interesting.
But even with a PhD we can't be sure he meant "prostitution" or "prostitution businesses"?
It is so easy for a mistake to slip in!

For example he writes:
"In 1996, the Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, or the 1996 Act, came into force to eliminate prostitution by making it an illegal activity.  While replacing the Suppression of Prostitution Act, the 1996 Act prohibits prostitution and solicitation for prostitution, both male and female, in public places while setting the penalty for offering sexual services and for maintaining a prostitution establishment."

my understanding of english semantics is that he describes the ban "in public places". What about private places??

I really prefer to refer to the law and only to the law, which, at the end of the day, is the only reference in court, and even a judge cannot just laugh off a law - they can bend it, they can abuse it, they can sometimes circumvent it, but they can't ignore it.

Consent or absence of it would not matter if the girl was under 18 years of age.
Yes you can legally have sex with a girl less than 15;-
IF the laws of your own country allow it.
IF it is not  in a prostitution establishment  -  they don't say what is or is not a place of prostitution and I'm not going to try and test that one.
Proof that no payment or favours have been exchanged in theory would be a defence but the law is very losely drafted (Sect.4) states it's prostitution if sex is;-  in return for money or any other benefit

you certainly meant with girls between 15 and 18 years of age.
sex with a girl under 15 constitutes statutory rape in Thailand.

of course I was talking about sex outside of prostitution establishments, since these establishements are firstly illegal and secondly are not allowed to employ staff below 18 years of age.

Then about the laws of your country allowing it:
Firstly, there will be no law ever stating what is allowed. you can interpret the absence of ban as an "ok"
Secondly, these provisions about "sexual offenses committed abroad" are a recent fascistisation of US and some EU national laws. Time to give back your passports. Soon people will not be able to drink befor ethey are 21, regardless of what the laws of the country they are staying in say. In Germany, 16 is the drinking age for beer. Be american and wait 5 years!
In Switzerland, both prostitution and brothels are allowed, consensual sex is allowed at 16yo and prostitutes can engage in such activities from 16 yo.


In short, I still insist that Thai Laws do not ban the simple act of prostitution, otherwise the lawmaker would not have added all that shameless and open stuff in the text.
Usually, when I go to a bar and take a girl, I don't talk about money. do you?
At that point, the charge of prostitution cannot be pressed since we didin't talk about money!
When can it be pressed? never!