WHAT do Ladyboys think about us?

[Stogie]

(guydesavoy @ May 17 2009,22:45) ...but once firm ground rules were set she was...

Great post but here's the real answer...

SET THE RULES BEFORE THE GAME STARTS!

I've seen too many guys who are bullied, cajoled, conned or coerced into subsidizing a ladyboy in the belief that it then constitutes a relationship.

A loving relationship is when you live together and the food is shared.

There are plenty of other types of relationship and they are all great, but when it comes to love you have to be together or it's NOT gonna work.

[thegame925]

I have monitored this thread with interest.

Nothing new has appeared, although this subject rears its head (or its heart) with unsurprising regularity; maybe Stogie could open up a €œProblem Page€ Section.

I am going to throw my two cents into the ring, but I wanted to re-visit that which I wrote when I was a mere youngster of 73, and new to the Forum, before providing the supplementary wisdom that a further forty-one months of mongering has added to my store of knowledge and to my views.

So, to quote myself:

The Ladyboy Forums with Stogie! » EXTRAS ~ The silly (and sensible) stuff that fits nowhere else! » ACADEMIA » the difference between working and none-working LB
thegame925 Post Number: 25  Posted on: Dec. 13 2006

Before I begin, by way of explanation, I was a member here a couple of years ago, but don€™t remember posting then. I rejoined in August 2006, but this is only my third post €“ I guess I only open my mouth when I have something to say
.
Now the post on €œthe difference between working and non-working LB€™s€ starts with the writer writing of €œRelationships€ and perhaps my experience is relevant.

I am English by birth educated in England and America, and lived most of my younger life after university, based in America. I am a Management Consultant. For many years I was working for International Banks and going to "rescue" their investments (mainly manufacturing businesses) all over the world - most of my work was in the Far East and Eastern Europe (although my family remained in America during those years).

I was once married (divorced 19 years ago), and have 4 children and 8 grandchildren living in different parts of the world. Whilst abroad, during my marriage and after, I was serially unfaithful with women, both in terms of affairs, one night stands and (as I got older) p4p.

Some 15 years ago, I met a Hong-Kong based, part-Chinese/part-Malay lady trainee- lawyer (age 21), in a Hong Kong lawyer€™s office, whom I asked out and who, on the fourth date, after being invited to my hotel room, turned out to have a "surprise" in her panties.  

That was my first ever TS experience €“ From that date a true relationship developed. We were together (living together) over 9 years. During that time she qualified as a lawyer, travelled with me when our schedules permitted. She met all my children and my ex-wife and her second husband. I did not tell my children that my partner was an LB on the first meeting, only after each of them got to know her.

Our friends were a cross section of ex-pats and locals within the communities in which we moved, and she had LB friends, a few of whom were €œon the game€, but the majority of whom led that which we would consider to be €œnormal€ lives, in €œnormal€ jobs.

Obviously, during those years I learned a great deal about the TS/LB mentality €“ how some (my partner for instance) €“ liked their equipment and how others wanted to cut it off. There are as many variations of the psyche in LB€™s as there are in the standard male and female minds.

Unfortunately, my partner took ill with cancer (albeit not related to her breast implants).  I quit my job and we went round the world on a search for a miracle cure. Nearly 12 months after the first diagnosis, she passed away. Because we tried to find a cure for her illness in so many countries, I not only lost my job, but hospitals and treatment took most of my savings.

During the years we were together I was never once unfaithful, and I do not believe she was unfaithful either.

After her passing, I left Hong Kong (I found her parents €œsuffocating€) I was sad for a year, then "picked myself up" and dated girls and came to Thailand and had a few p4p TS's, for €œone night stands€ and very short relationships . This was over a 2 year period.

Then, one bright morning, in Singapore, whilst waiting in the reception area of an Accountant€™s office, I fancied the receptionist (part-Malay/part-Thai) whom I recognized as TS. I asked her out, she accepted.

We met at a bar; she said €œI have to tell you something€. I said touched her Adam€™s apple and told her she did not need to tell me anything I knew she was TS.

We dated for a couple of months and then I was assigned to a job in Australia. I asked her if she wanted to accompany me. She did. We went to Australia together.

This was a "romance" where she got an education at college, she was 22 years old, and an Australian visa and played housewife. In return, I got a permanent, youthful, attractive, intelligent "live-in" TS girlfriend. But, in all honesty, whilst we were friends and lovers, we were not "in love" with each other - the "big spark" was never there.

Then I was transferred to Chile (where I could not take her and she would not have wanted to go)  and so I let her stay in Australia in my (rented) apartment until the end of the lease (11 months) and graduate from college the following year. I had paid for tuition etc in advance.

We have kept in touch over the last two years, she has dated men nearer her age, and one man in particular encouraged her to have reassignment surgery. This past July (against my advice) she had the "final cut" and her boy-friend asked her to marry him.

She has no parents (they died when she was a teenager) and I have been invited to "give her away" at her wedding at the year end - so I will be travelling to Australia for her wedding just before Xmas. Her fiancé knows of my relationship with his bride-to-be, and I have spoken to him via Skype and assured him I won€™t try the new €œbox€ before the wedding day.

Incidentally, apropos the girl in Australia, two of my children met her a couple of times, and again accepted her without question. I guess I am kind of proud that I (or more honestly, my ex-wife) raised kids who are totally non-judgmental.

I am currently not in a relationship, mainly because it is impossible to meet attractive companions where I am working.  When in major cities I do indulge in "pay4play" occasionally, (and only with TS€™s - an expensive hobby at European rates) but I have not yet met anyone from that background with whom I could see myself having a "permanent" relationship.

I am really past the age when I should have retired, but I need the money to maintain my lifestyle and provide for the future. However, I do believe that it is possible to meet a TS/LB and have a relationship, provided that the two of you are in the same city €“ it will not work at thousands of miles distance. (I can tell you stories of how the internet has sustained the market for €œmother€™s operation; new oxen; eye surgery on little brothers, etc., etc.)

Looking towards retirement, I want to live in a major city in the USA or Europe and to travel internationally; I have no desire live on a beach in Thailand.

My preference is that I would like to meet a young, bright, intelligent, attractive, pre-op TS who was confident in her femininity and persona - a person who would enjoy being "spoiled and educated" by an older man - who could become interested in art, music (of all types), travel, food, wine, movies, - who, in time and given compatibility, would enjoy travel, etc.

If my preference was for Amazonian blonde GG€™s, I could go to Eastern Europe and find a young beauty €“ Would that relationship be any more €œnatural€? My predilection happens to be for Asian pre-op LB€™s (and I am a top €“ not versatile at all).

I fully recognise that whether my partner is a GG or an LB, that partner will not be with me for my aged body, my looks, or anything other than the lifestyle I can provide.

I know I am not "Brad Pitt", but, from past experience, I know that there are things that a young person can get from an older person and vice-versa that makes both sides feel that they have made a fair bargain.

Having written this, and re-read it, it strikes me that when I am ready to look I should be going to the Philippines not Thailand €“ The Philippines exports thousands of trained nurses and care-workers all over the world and a fair percentage of them are LB€™s.

At my age a trained nurse who was also a beauiful pre-op LB, would be the ideal person for me to enter into a mutually rewarding relationship.

thegame925  Post Number: 34 Posted on: Dec. 23 2006

A few additional thoughts, in the light of my interpretation of Costassg€™s comments on Barfines:

I think we all fully appreciate that there is a cost implication in any relationship.

If anyone thinks relationships don€™t carry a financial cost, then they are not living on this (or any other) planet.

A wife costs - and a divorce can cost more than living with her.

A child (one€™s own) costs to rear him/her.

A dog costs (collars, leashes, food, vets).

A girl-friend costs (dinners, theatres, hotels, petrol).

A cow costs, (hay, water,) - but OK you can eat it in the end and there is a dividend by way of milk

So we all know what the bar-fine is and yes, relationships cost more than a short time session or a one-night stand.

I€™ve €œbutterflied€ with the best of them €“ and, over many decades, I€™ve had plenty of one-night-stands on both an amateur and a p4p basis.

In my twenties and thirties I could not understand p4p. All I knew is that I felt I could have any woman I wanted whenever I walked into any room, anywhere.

At my age I walk into a room and although I might physically take up space, I might as well be invisible.

I am not a physically attractive proposition to anyone of any sex unless I start picking my teeth with an American Express Centurion Black Card, and even then I might have difficulty without a €œfollow-spotlight€ shining on the card!

I am yesterday€™s man and the only action likely to come my way of the type to which I am attracted, is on a p4p basis.

That said, the question raised was about whether on can have a relationship with a Ladyboy, and I was attempting to give an answer based on experience.

I have also had relationships with a wife, with children, with girl-friends, with dogs (the four-legged barking canine variety), bank managers, business partners, etc.

Truthfully, the best and longest relationship I have had has been with myself and the only thing that has ever bored me is my right hand (which I have also used for writing cheques).

My next best relationship was with a ladyboy and, before anyone makes the point, had she lived another decade or so and was a 40 year old ladyboy, would I look on the relationship the same way?

I am afraid I could not answer that hypothetical question.

In my heart of hearts, sadly, I expect I would have moved on.

thegame925 Post Number: 39 Posted on: Dec. 23  2006.

I personally concur with Mr Smith - it ain't heroic!

I never intended to portray anything other than a relationship with an LB is no different than a relationship with anybody, anyone, anything.

All relationships need work on both sides.

All a relationship really needs is commitment by both parties.

OK, that covers my thoughts in December 2006, so now I need to think about how I would present my thoughts in May 2009.

[ladyboyluva]

Thanks for sharing those fascinating insights thegame925.

The advice I've gotten has been very helpful in me wrapping my head around the pro-cons and realistic expectations to be gained from a LTR.

[thegame925]

What have I learned since December 2006?

Well, during these 41 months, between working predominantly in Siberia, Vladivostok and Northern Alaska, I have travelled the world and, in addition to the P4P one-night-stands, I have furthered my personal relationships with a varied selection of LBs.

These include:

A truly beautiful 23 year old black pre-op LB from an exotic island in the Indian Ocean, working in the UK in the P4P industry, who originally thought she was working to pay for her breast augmentation surgery, but the need for money was such that, after the surgery, she continued to work, but turned to alcohol to blunt and blur her unhappiness with the direction of her life. She knows what she ought to do, but never gets round to doing it.

A 39 year Muslim post-op LB who came to Europe from Malaysia to paint in her twenties. A university educated, well-read, intelligent lady who speaks six languages fluently and is a brilliant conversationalist.  Her paintings did not sell, so she turned escorting to earn money for food, canvas and paints and, despite very strong religious beliefs,  took cocaine to help her cope with the escorting work. She has been back in her home village in Northern Malaysia for a year and claims to be €œclean€, but is contemplating a return to Europe to paint and admits that she will go back to escorting if she has to do so.

A 21 year-old Thai girl, with a great personality, who was extremely popular for a couple of years with members of this forum and who kept falling for the promises made to her by her customers and those who €œbefriended her€ (with ulterior motives). She finally appears to have realized that her best course of action was to invest in machinery in order work her farm more efficiently and save enough for a university education whilst continuing to manage her farm-workers. She wrote a Business Plan and has stuck to it (so far). I get photos of her with the machinery and doing the manual labor, which I find refreshing. She still sees a couple of €˜€™old friends€ (of which I am one) when they come to Thailand, but her mind appears firmly fixed on her education and her farm. This is not to say she may still fall for some good looking fallang who will cause her grief and heartache.

A 29 year old Filipina she-male who has worked in the P4P industry as an escort and in the web-sex titillation business, now working as a beautician and really scared that she might have to go back into the P4P industry. She is currently applying  for work as a beautician or hairdresser on a Cruise Ship. Simultaneously, through friends, she is applying for a visa to get to Europe to work as a beautician. She claims she will not go back to sex-industry related work.

I know from my P4P experiences that the majority of the Thai LBs who somehow get to Europe, the UK, Australia and the USA to work in the P4P are often assisted by pimps who exploit them just as GG sex-workers have been exploited for centuries.

The Thai, Malaysian and Filipina LBs who are now on €œThe Circuit€ of Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau, Beijing and Shanghai are facing greater competition and are not earning that which they expected to earn and currently find that the costs of the trips often result in a loss-making adventure.

The Filipino she-males who go to Europe, UK, or USA as nurses and who work in hospitals on a shift basis and as P4P Escorts on the days when they are not working in hospitals, always say that they are working as escorts only to pay for their breast augmentation surgery, but the majority keep on working because they like the money, and the longer they work, the more likely they are likely to take drugs.

Yes, there are LBs in many countries pursuing normal careers, but the ones that are (relatively) stable are the ones from wealthier and more educated backgrounds €“ but even they suffer from problems with €œself-image€.

If the majority of teenagers go through periods of self-doubt and self-image problems, those doubts and fears are magnified and multiplied for transsexuals.

Yes, economic pressures have always drawn people of every gender into the sex industry and provided the sex-worker is only in the industry for a relatively brief time period, they can get out relatively unscathed.

But a few years as a prostitute can harden the sex worker against sex and, in his or her mind, having seen all sorts of perversions, had all sorts of promises made and broken, leads to a total sense of mistrust. It is not an urban myth that many female prostitutes in the West are lesbians!

One of the most perceptive, intelligent and true statements I have ever heard was made to me by a ladyboy in Pattaya whose outward appearance was that of a total sex-machine, but who felt she was unattractive and unappealing.

She believed that no GG or LB could ever have a long-term relationship with a man in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket (or any place where there is so much sexual €œtemptation€).

She believed that the guy would be unfaithful in such a situation, and because she believed that, she knew she had to look for a guy to replace the guy who was going to fall for someone else.

She (and her friends) knew that they were creating a vicious circle for themselves.

She was bright enough to appreciate that a stable relationship was a relationship built on mutual trust and on something longer-lasting than sexual attraction.

She knew there had to be friendship and shared interests.

She also knew that there were huge differences in cultural attitudes; in the disparity of backgrounds; a big difference in education; a language problem; etc.

As far as she was concerned, in exchange for security and a stable, permanent relationship, she was prepared to accept the role of a housekeeper who shared her master€™s bed, but only provided that he remained faithful.

If that sounds like 18th Century Colonial thinking €“ That is because that is exactly what it is!

In this instance, he did not remain faithful and she is back working in the P4P scene in Pattaya. Ask her about the future, and the answer is a shrug and the statement that she remains hopeful that one day she might meet someone.

I know that I am not adding anything that is new or insightful to this thread.

I know from personal experience that one can have a long-term relationship with anyone of any gender and that such a relationship can be successful despite different backgrounds, levels of education, age disparity, etc.

I do believe that all relationships are difficult and that to maintain a relationship there has to be €œgive and take€ and compromise by both parties on an on-going basis.

I wrote in December 2006, and I repeat in May 2009:

All relationships need work on both sides.

All a relationship really needs is commitment by both parties.

But I do believe that it is extremely difficult to have a long-lasting relationship if one of the parties has spent any length of time in the P4P industry.

[JaiDee]

(kahuna @ May 17 2009,15:10) they are trolling all the time...even when they are with you...

Basically I spend about 9 months a year in LOS......they are not culturally capable of having a relationship with a farang..

How's that first line make the loverboys out there feel?

Happens every night, frankly, a guy is out with his ''date'' or even worse his ''girlfriend'' [again a very sketchy word in the Thai LB scene] and yet her eyes are roving all over the room looking for potential guys who will give her the 2000 baht on some other night. I've been introduced to LB's by a falang who says ''this is my girlfriend X, isn't she puurrty?'' and just the night before she was with some other joker and now she is holding her finger to her lips making the SHHHH sound so I won't blow it for her.

No problems, sister, your secret is safe with me.

Although Kahuna hits the mark more than anyone on this thread IMO, this 2nd part can be debateable because guys who live in Thailand sometimes [very rarely] prove it wrong; IE, they find a long-time girl and settle down with her. Even 9 months isn't enough to do that, you have to LIVE there; 6, 7 or 9 months isn't enough to establish a GF-BF experience. But in my mind even for the guys who live there, there is always an underlying reason she is hanging around with someone twice her age; it may not be money, but security and a sense of being loved by a father figure [maybe they never had that growing up] may be the reason, as well as the fact of ''well, better to hang around with Tom, even if he is not really appealing to me and a bit old and chubby, than to work in some shithole bar 7 nights per week.''

Again though, this only applies to guys who LIVE in Thailand; guys who are sending cash and visiting only a few times per year hoping the object of their affection really loves them; get used to it, you are a money machine and nothing else.

Naang Faa mentioned a message board where the LB's talk about their lives and loves, etc...... and says when she and her friends meet we are not even discussed, which makes sense. The original point to LB-Luva when he was complaining that many of the old-timers who read here were a bit critical of the scene was that if there WERE such a message board, meaning the exact same as this one but for Thai LB's only, the comments about falangs in general would be much less flattering than the way we talk about the LB's here.

That was the whole original point; by ignoring the thousands of positive posts, trip reports, glowing comments about beautiful LB's, etc..... and only focusing on the 5% of negative or hurtful comments, you're not getting a real view of the way the majority of the punters here feel. Which is [if they have any experience at all]; hey, we enjoy spending time with ladyboys and they are cute and fun and everything, but over the years we have learned to see this all as a game and never take it too seriously.

Finally Stogie is probably correct in that there is no better place to discuss topics like this; even if this site was/is attached to a porno website discussions like this one can't be found anywhere else as far as I know, except of course on other porno message boards.

[sev7en]

(JaiDee @ May 18 2009,19:06)  Happens every night, frankly, a guy is out with his ''date'' or even worse his ''girlfriend''  

Yup, my fav is when you are introduced to the lb and in the handshake you find her pointfinger scratch your palm. At first few times i had no idea what it meant, thought she was being funny and tried to tickle me

Now i know better.

[JaiDee]

funny.... that means "sure, I am with Joe tonight, but I will be with YOU tomorrow night"

hansum man, you

[bigmick22]

the palm-scratching thing is common throughout east asia

i was totally mystified the first time someone did it to me

[jimslim]

(sev7en @ May 18 2009,19:21)

(JaiDee @ May 18 2009,19:06)  Happens every night, frankly, a guy is out with his ''date'' or even worse his ''girlfriend''  

Yup, my fav is when you are introduced to the lb and in the handshake you find her pointfinger scratch your palm. At first few times i had no idea what it meant, thought she was being funny and tried to tickle me

Now i know better.

Ladyboy freemasons

[rossco]

Wow - some brilliant insights to the world of romance and love.

Any relationship is difficult and the road to happiness is often paved with obstacles. So a GG and a guy have problems in their own country where they understand the territory and the environment that they both live in.

Now you meet someone who is different in 2 major ways.
First they are NOT from your world. They have differnet values, education, political understanding and are worlds apart from your world.
Second is that LB's are a sort of half way point between male and female. They are exotic and very affectionate.

So how can a relationship be successful in teh long term?

Just the same as any relationship. Talking, listening, understanding, non judgmental etc etc.

You need to be honest with yourself first - are you happy to have an LB on your arm and have her accepted as your partner?

Will you accept all the cultural/philosophical/religious differences in your stride?

So any relationship is about tolerance and understanding primarily and then the rest follows. IMHO

[ladyboyluva]

@ Jaidee and thegame925: Sensational! Scary sometimes but it's sinking in.

I still care a lot for those little flowers, but we can't save all their lives, even trying to save one seems like asking for miracles.

[halla]

(Mister Ree @ May 16 2009,02:02) Remember also that, in the Thai scheme of things, the older party in a 'winter-spring' romance is expected to provide monetary support. It's seen as being equitable and fair. Each party gives the other something that they have the greater amount of. The older party generally has more money, having accumulated it. The younger party is sharing her (or his) youth and beauty. So even if you're not paying by the episode, you are expected to gift with generosity.

So you're telling me that there are some lbs who owe me money? Maybe I need to go arund collecting the $$ next time in LOS.

I think this is an interesting topic. I'm going to Thailand in 2 months and I'm gonna be there for at least 5 months. On my last 2 trips I've spent some time with a nice lb. She recently aquired a sponsor, so she don't have to be hooking. It seemed like a good set up. Dating a lb who gets her money from a guy whos not around, a bit weird though. But mr sponsor guy have made her move up country, so now she would be a 10+ hours bus ride away instead of a 10+ hours plane ride away.