Counting Ladyboys

[stogie bear]

Most of them that I briefly read through argue that there are really not more transgendered folks in Thailand then in other societies including the west, but rather that the transgendered are simple more visible in Thailand...

Well - if academics are saying this then they need to actually come here before they start writing this fiction!

One of the reasons that the population of M2F transgendered people has exploded in Thailand is because they blend so easily into the physical society of Thailand and NOT because they are 'more visible.'

They may seem 'more visible' to foreigners because ladyboys are marketed as a tourist attraction to foreigners.

It makes me laugh when people say "I can spot one every time!" because they can only spot the ones that look like they are ladyboys and so they think that they can spot all of them.

In reality they can only spot the ones that aren't passable (obviously) and don't give a second glance to the tens of thousands that are passable and look just like girls.

You are reading poppycock generated by some idiot with a degree who thinks he knows something that clearly doesn't even make sense! Does he really belive that the proportion of ladyboys in the population in Thaland is roughly the same as the proportion of M2F transsexuals in the UK or America or Mexico?

Good grief! Still - I suppose you can write what you want on the internet, right?

[kahuna]

I not defending them...I have no idea if they are right or wrong...However, I think they mean visible in another sense...from within the Thai social system not from without...

I don't believe that they are suggesting that one can walk down the street in BKK and count them on their fingers...

I'm sorry if what I wrote was confusing on that point, I'll try again with my less than perfect language skills, I believe what they are suggesting is, that because Thai Society is "more tolerant" than western societies, they, the transgendered, are more are inclined to display their transgenderism...and that creates the appearance of a greater population than in western societies...I certainly don't know if that is true in whole, but it's certainly true in part...

If you walked down the street where I live with a ladyboy, both you and the ladyboy would be the subject of ridicucle...And it's that negative reaction that keeps many, they suggest mucho many, western transgendered in their closets...and that is clearly not the case in Thailand...

[TTChang]

This is a great thread for those like me just setting out in the LB scene, and trying to understand it in more depth.  Also tells me more about Thailand too.

Keep the posts coming!  

[Guest]

I don't see why Kahuna's academic is poppycock.

If you take the presumption that gender is inate, i.e., we are born with it, it does not get nurtured, and that the biology of all humans worldwide is essentially the same, then you must conclude the % LB in any population is the same. They only way you cannot conclude that is to somehow suggest the biology of Thai people is different that the entire rest of the world.

From what I've read by so-called "poppycock" academics (Stogie, by calling them that, you are saying you are a better academic?), LBs were more freely accepted in very ancient times, and, guess what? They were everywhere, i.e., in every culture on earth...Romans, South Pacific islands, North American Indians, ancient Muslim cultures.

It is only since so-called "civilization" started that prejudices began and all minorities went underground or were slaughtered. There is a famous (to LB researchers) story about the "Slaughtering of the berdache" where "educated" Spaniards killed all the North American "barbarian" native Indians who were LBs that they met.

I have no idea if the % are the same world-wide. It seems not, and it does seem there are more in Thailand. But, intellectually, the arguments are in favor that the % are the same everywhere.

[stogie bear]

Stogie, by calling them that, you are saying you are a better academic?

I'm NOT an academic... but I am sure I have a better grip on reality than these fools. (Yes - I know how arrogant that sounds, but these idiots with a degree in Mind-bollocks can't even use a knife and fork properly!)

If you take the presumption that gender is inate, i.e., we are born with it, it does not get nurtured, and that the biology of all humans worldwide is essentially the same... ya de ya de ya...

That's true I suppose, but I DO NOT presume that humans are born equal all over the globe. Further more I believe that sex is a combination of what we are born with and how we are raised. Our sexuality is a result of our instincts AND our surroundings.

With that belief firmly ensconced in my tiny brain and with all the evidence I have accumulated from my short half century of living and from what common sense tells me I believe that the ratio of ladyboys in Thai society is higher than the ratio of transgendered in any Western country you care to name.

[Guest]

It seems most posts go off topic, including this one.

The point of the post was "Why do you think there are more visible transgenders in Thailand?". I gave one idea. I posted it to get other ideas.

Anyone take the challenge?

[stogie bear]

(ziggystardust @ Nov. 12 2006,00:40) Anyone take the challenge?

Have you even bothered to read the replies?

[stogie bear]

Counting Ladyboys - Why so many in Thailand?

The point of the post was "Why do you think there are more visible transgenders in Thailand?". I gave one idea. I posted it to get other ideas.

OK... Let's get this straight...

You posted a very vague topic title and gave several of your own ideas. Now you have decided that the topic is now about the social profile of ladyboys by suddenly introducing their 'visibility' and claiming that the thread was about this all along!

Not only that you have now discounted all the ideas that have so far been suggested by saying the subject has gone "off topic."

If people take the trouble to engage you in these debates at least have the courtesy to read and try to understand some of the replies.

Scrolling back through this thread I can see a multitude of reasons offered as to why there are so many ladyboys in Thailand including yours.

By introducing the 'visibility' of ladyboys in Thailand it is you who are changing the course of the thread not us poor readers and responders. Certainly the high visibility of ladyboys in Thailand is germain to your original question but it's NOT the question that you originally asked...

Are YOU up to the challange of respecting other peoples opinions and keeping the topic on track?

[dhz]

Maybe finding there some interesting information about this:
http://web.hku.hk/~sjwint....and.htm

[stogie bear]

I've worked with Sam in the past on some TV stuff. A great guy and about the only academic I have time for.

[Guest]

I think the confluence of all Zig's factors have reached a tipping point.

Perhaps Political support could be added although I suppose that's part of Social or Employment support.

Both Thais and Khmers have simlar bodies and are Buddhist.  But the Pol Pot regime wasn't an environment where transgenderism could flourish.

[ShockToe]

Peter Jackson has published quite a few articles that members here might find interesting?

Example, Performative Genders, Perverse Desires:
A Bio-History of Thailand's Same-Sex and Transgender Cultures


Regarding actual figures, if anyone is counting, the most recent government figure I€™ve seen in print was 180,000 €˜transgendered€™ males. Not sure where this figure comes from? Schools? Military conscription? Others have put forth a figure closer to 350,000. Of course with 100 degrees of €˜transgender-ness€™ (effeminate male to post-op) here I can€™t imagine any figures are reliable. There is a ~ 45 year old man in my small neighborhood who looks gay, but I would never call him a ladyboy. Every other Thai person calls him a ladyboy?

I€™ve seen some posts by foreign teachers here, in the government school system, quoting some pretty high percentages of LB€™s in Matayom 1 €“ 6 (U.S. grades 7 €“ 12, ages ~ 12 €“ 18), maybe 3 ~ 4 in a class of 30 boys and girls total (20% - 25% of the boys!). Needless to say the farm system is robust. It is tolerated here, but not accepted. Maybe it€™s also accepted on the €˜micro€™ level of family/friends but not on the societal level. Thai-Chinese families can be especially tough for gay/LB children.

[rob69in]

This was bar talk from someone who claimed to have lived in Chiang Mai for 30yrs. Its factual content is definitely questionable, but after so many years of traveling I am open to all sorts theories. True or fales, I don't know.

Apparantly poor Thai farmers were encouraged to "farm" there most suitable sons into being LB's, & were offerred "free" hormones to help the process along. LB's are "marketable" products that can bring in money to the family / community was the thinking behind it.

Fairly immotive stuff for us westerners.

[ShockToe]

(rob69in @ Nov. 13 2006,21:10) Apparantly poor Thai farmers were encouraged to "farm" there most suitable sons into being LB's, & were offerred "free" hormones to help the process along. LB's are "marketable" products that can bring in money to the family / community was the thinking behind it.

Who encouraged poor Thai farmers to do this? Certainly one of the most off-the-wall theories I've ever heard, not believable on any level.

Of course, that might explain why there are so many LB's from Roi Et? Must be their OTOP 'product'?

[rob69in]

(ShockToe @ Nov. 13 2006,21:24) [Who encouraged poor Thai farmers to do this? Certainly one of the most off-the-wall theories I've ever heard, not believable on any level.

The state, as i recal from the conversation. But i can believe this theory the Thais are capable of just about anything!

Like digging up beach road in Pattaya for the 3rd consecutive peak season in a row.