Counting Ladyboys

[Guest]

This is a subject I've been studying, reading on for 3 years, no joke. However, I have found no scientific answer. This is my conclusion so far, and I have a long, long way to go.

There are many LBs in Thailand, and seemingly more than in any other country, because of the following (my theory):

-There is religious support of them (the Buddhist canon recognizes a 3rd gender); thus there is theological support. Also, Hinduism and Buddhism support acceptance of different types of people in general, i.e., less discrimination.

-There is family support; LBs are well accepted in families in Thailand

-There is social support; LBs are not denigraded to the degree they are in other countries and thus can live openly, which, in turn, creates a peer group -- critical especially for sensitive teens.

-There is employment support; LBs can get jobs

-There is also a genetic factor, whereby many Thai males can look feminine, and a growing industry supporting that femininty (surgeons), and thus it is easier to imagine being female...LBs are so sensitive to their looks.

If you can develop in your family, have a peer group in your teens, and get a job as an adult, in your chosen gender, there are no barriers to that path. As such, Thailand represents an environment where personal gender can be expressed more or less, at one's perogative.

If another country had these traits, my theory is gender expression would be the same, i.e., tne number of LBs would be equal to Thailand.

However, this is so deep (for example, family acceptance), that it will take generations for that to change in other countries. Conversely, one could say the idea that discrimination will be over in other countries in years (vs generations), is bogus.

Happy to hear other views, as I have yet to see anything else that explains this rationally.

[rxpharm]

I have to say I have wondered about this too. Having visited a few Asian countries, Malaysia, Singapore, Bali, Philippines, Hong Kong, I am amazed at how it appears there are many more lbs in Thailand as a percentage of the population than others.

I am no research scientist, but I would agree with the points that Ziggy has raised.

I have asked a few lbs myself why there are so many lbs in Thailand. One interesting answer I heard was that is the "fashion".

When I pressed for an explanation they put it this way:

In Thailand beauty is admirable - so when so many lbs can be as or more beautiful than the most beautiful ggs, it gets attention of the public, particularly the children. This lb told me she believed that some people who have "gay" tendencies see this and instead of becoming "gay" they choose the lb route instead. It is easier for the Thais because of the physique, ready availability of hormones, plastic surgey, and advice of older "sisters".

I am not sure what to think about this explanation, and I am sure there are many other factors involved as well.

Something to think about, but I would like to give thanks for Thailand and their wonderful lbs!

[Guest]

I don't believe the 'fashion' theory, because, if you ask almost any LB, they will tell you they felt like a lady since about 5 years old, way before they knew anything about fashion, beauty, or perhaps even saw a LB.

Some books say a portion become LBs because they are attracted to men, and getting a man as a beautiful woman is easier than as a man.

Some comments on this forum say it is for money or the desire to travel to another country with a foreigner.

The easy way to refute most arguments is that they feel like this since their earliest memories, before they knew about attraction to men, money, fashion, or even what another country was.

It is inate, inborn, from inception.

[andre459]

Interesting topic Ziggy this had made me wonder as well, it's hard for me to comment since I don't have much experience with Thai culture. I know we have a long way to go in the West before we are as accepting.
It has only been in the last 20-30 years that gay rights have come about and there is still a lot of prejudice. So I imagine it will be a few generations before there is proper support and acceptance in society for transgenders.

[TTChang]

Very interesting thread, Ziggy.

Yes, many ladyboys I've asked say they knew they wanted to be a lady from their earliest memories.

Although even 5 year olds follow fashion, if there is a movement in the country for 'beautiful' & acceptance.

[69billy]

ziggy..
I think you are spot on...
Only problem is Thai government... They should let them get merried...

[stogie bear]

All the points that Ziggy made in the first post make sense to me.

I would add that Thailand does not endure the humiliating "machoism" of other societies which inhibit sexual expression.

[Torurot]

Family acceptance of gays for eg. have in many countries changed for the better in only one generation, and while there is still discrimination it is vastly reduced. Where as it was illegal in most countres it is now legal. The "west" does not have the culture and the long term knowledge of the idea of a "third sex", but this too could change in a generation, what with TV, Internet, travel etc.. Younger people are more accepting of difference (mostly) than the generation before.

[Mai-Kee]

I would say it's more tolerated than accepted in Thailand. Still a lot have problems with their families and in their jobs. To say that they are "well accepted" is wishful thinking or just, pardon my french, rubbish!
It's not like they are just a 3rd gender and you can be vice president of a Thai bank, no matter if you're male, female or lb. Thai society is extremely hierarchical and lb's are definitely somewhere in the basement of this society.
Also don't forget that the medical/ psychological support is zero in LOS. The kids just buy hormones like sweet drops and cut off their dicks whenever they feel - or their "peer groups" think -  it's appropraite to do so.
I'm pretty tired of this stereotype "Thailand the tgirl paradise" and I wonder how people who actually live there can say such things? Get out of your little pink Nana/Pattaya LB world and live a normal life with a normal job in a normal company in LOS and you'll see very quickly that all this is so not true! Try to mention that topic during a business lunch with your Thai collegues..... you might be surprised about their lack of tolerance...
It's just what it is. A 3rd world country with something that is perceived by most westerners as quite a high tolerance towards minorities - or how I would call it, a "we don't give a shit about them" attitude....
T.I.T.  

MK

[stogie bear]

Interesting take, but I'd have to take issue with a few points.

By saying that "the medical/ psychological support is zero in LOS." is a bit misleading.

Firstly; there are more and more NGO agencies for transgendered people opening in cities across Thailand and these have the full support of the authorities including the police.

Secondly there is little to no support for ANYONE and to single out LBs is a tad discriminatory. There is also little to no support for mental people, physically disadvantaged, drug addicts, alcoholics, old people, family abuse victims, rape victims, victims of crime... and on and on...

Also; to say that "It's not like they are just a 3rd gender and you can be vice president of a Thai bank, no matter if you're male, female or lb." is also a bit unrepresentative of Thai society as most bank managers don't want to be ladyboys either!

Like all things, your level of achievement will depend on your own drive and ambition. Sure there are professional disadvantages of being transexual in Thailand but there are MORE barries to blacks and cripples who have similar professional goals.

Unlike many societies - in Thailand prejudice is inspired by fear and/or ignorance and NOT hatred. It's not true to say that Thais turn their noses up at minorites just because they feel moraly superior. There are too many other factors at play and a large part of the Thais attitude to all things outside the realms of normalcy can be directly traced back to what goes on in the classroom when they are kids.

Thailand IS a TGirl paradise. If you come here looking for a feminine ladyboy partner for a serious long term loving relationship then this is the ONLY country in the world where this can happen with any degree of certainty. Go to any university in Bangkok or any shopping mall or lonely hearts site on the web, etc.

Also the comment "It's just what it is. A 3rd world country with quite a high tolerance towards minorities" could not be further from the truth. Thais generally have no tolerance for minorities and if you examine the set up of politics and the judiciary this would confirm the idea that Thais have no provisions for anyone who chooses to identify with a minority group.

Sure they pay lip-service to muslims and there is an elevator on the BTS for wheelchairs, but as for serious involvement in society then minorities are excluded. Has anyone reading this ever seen anyone in a wheelchair trying to negotiate the sidewalks here? Have you seen a crippled or dark skinned politition or judge?

As for ladyboys - it's easy to make quick bucks being a prostitute but the days of all ladyboys only having this as an option are a long way past. There are thousands and thousands of smart, articulate and beautiful ladyboys these days who will never set foot in a tourist shitpit and won't work in hairdressers either!

That's not to say that the fight is easy or close to being won but the opportunities for ladyboys professionally are opening up and more and more hirers see applicants in terms of what they can do for a company rather than automatically overlooking them.

[Mai-Kee]

(stogie bear @ Nov. 07 2006,11:48) Secondly there is little to no support for ANYONE and to single out LBs is a tad discriminatory. There is also little to no support for mental people, physically disadvantaged, drug addicts, alcoholics, old people, family abuse victims, rape victims, victims of crime... and on and on...


Also; to say that "It's not like they are just a 3rd gender and you can be vice president of a Thai bank, no matter if you're male, female or lb." is also a bit unrepresentative of Thai society as most bank managers don't want to be ladyboys either!


Like all things, your level of achievement will depend on your own drive and ambition. Sure there are professional disadvantages of being transexual in Thailand but there are MORE barries to blacks and cripples who have similar professional goals.


Thailand IS a TGirl paradise. If you come here looking for a feminine ladyboy partner for a serious long term loving relationship then this is the ONLY country in the world where this can happen with any degree of certainty. Go to any university in Bangkok or any shopping mall or lonely hearts site on the web, etc.


Also the comment "It's just what it is. A 3rd world country with quite a high tolerance towards minorities" could not be further from the truth. Thais generally have no tolerance for minorities and if you examine the set up of politics and the judiciary this would confirm the idea that Thais have no provisions for anyone who chooses to identify with a minority group.


Sure they pay lip-service to muslims and there is an elevator on the BTS for wheelchairs, but as for serious involvement in society then minorities are excluded. Has anyone reading this ever seen anyone in a wheelchair trying to negotiate the sidewalks here? Have you seen a crippled or dark skinned politition or judge?


That's not to say that the fight is easy or close to being won but the opportunities for ladyboys professionally are opening up and more and more hirers see applicants in terms of what they can do for a company rather than automatically overlooking them.

You are totally right and I corrected myself before, it's "... a 3rd world country with something that is perceived by most westerners as quite a high tolerance towards minorities " - means, actually it's not!!! Cripples, black people (look at this ridiculous - actually pan-asian - prejudice against dark skinned in Thailand against Issaan or southern Thais), retarded, etc. Thailand also does not have a social system with nursing homes, public pension funds, etc.

To say that most bank executives don't want to be LB's - well, maybe they want. the girls sometimes have degrees from Chula and Thammassat. Why should they stop their career in the lower or middle management? that's a hen and egg thing I'd say...

And that Thailand is tgirl paradise because we all can go there and find the lb of our dreams... LOL...That makes it a tgirl paradise for us and not necessarily for them...

[Guest]

Although I hate to admit it, I think I agree with pretty much every point Stogie has made.

Mai-Kee, with the respect I hold for you, this was your worst post.

This is point blank straight-forward black and white. I live with a LB. I go to restaurants and bars with her. She is totally respected. She goes to a University studying Computer Science, in feminine dress, with nigh a blink of an eye. She goes to female toilets, and everyone would think it crazy for her not to do so. She will get a job in Computer Science. Why do I know? The company I hire for my web-site has 2 transgenders, both directions; they don't care. Her parents welcome me as a second son. Her father defends her gender to all his drunken friends.

All of these so simple things, I know, are impossible in my home country, Canada, a so-called "developed" country. Why do I know? I've seen it first hand in my own, very educated, modern, family siblings attitudes.

While Thailand is absolutely not nirvana for LBs, and there is still discrimination in jobs and even some bars, it is so far ahead of the rest of the world in transgender acceptance, the comparison is not even remotely close.

However, my post was not really to dispute this, it was to try to explain why there are so many. And my theory, is that the basics that permit acceptance in childhood, teen years, and in adulthood, are there, and they are not there in any other country to the same degree.

[Mai-Kee]

Ziggy, you are of course absolutely right with your own perceptions - the family of your gf, etc. But why for gods sake are you generalizing this?
I met so many nice and friendly people on the countryside who are even proud of their lb daughters and I met once even a doctor with 3 lb daughters - all happy and fine! But that's not Thailand!!! Not at all!!!
Ask Thais who work for multinational companies or big Thai companies in executive or higher positions, ask lawyers, politicians - let's say opinion leaders -  as I said, you will be suprised about their ignorance and prejudice about lb's. I hear this since 15 years from those people and I'm fed up with their hypocrisy as well as with this pink glasses view of some farang who think their little spectrum they discovered between the backyards of Bangkok, Pattaya and some Issaan villages is Thailand. It's just not!
Again Thailand is highly hierarchical and - as Stogie stated very clear - not a tolerant society! The people who run this country are hard core right wingers, mainly military&police, old-money families and rich entrepreneurs. The rest is just grass roots. Doesn't count! That's not democracy as we know (see what happened with Thaksin), opinion leaders in Thailand are actually LEADERS!
So if at this level is no tolerance towards TG's - then there is none! Pls get me right, I'm talking about institutionalized tolerance - e.g. rights - here! Not about some families who are ok with what their children do, etc.
... and you mentioned NGO's... hahaha, gimme a break! NGO's in Thailand have actually less importance on the schedule of any opinion leader/ politician than the local food vendor where he get's his chicken soup. Maybe the only NGO with some relevance (means funding and political backup - and the Princesses trust) in Thailand is the red cross, the rest are just clowns! (Again not in my eyes and I highly respect anybody who does NGO jobs from whatever institution, but their relevance in this country is about zero!)


MK

[Guest]

Actually, we don't disagree. Also I didn't mention NGOs.

But this discussion has nothing to do with the original post, which was "why are there so many?", not "is Thailand protect the rights and provide 100% equality for LBs?".

[kahuna]

This is something I've wondered about on occasion...so I wandered about in my glacial fashion and read several pieces by some folks who I will guess are academicians of a sort...

Most of them that I briefly read through argue that there are really not more transgendered folks in Thailand then in other societies including the west, but rather that the transgendered are simple more visible in Thailand (especially MTF)...for many of the sociocultural reasons that have already been cited here...

So I don't suppose the question can ever be answered unless someone wants to undertake a world-wide census...which is highly unlikely...

It's a good question however...and their visibility and the presumption that there are more transgendered in Thailand than other parts of the world, in my uneducated opinion, most certainly has everything to do with Thai social systems and their cultural paradigm...

Apparently, in this case at any rate,  they don't have as many closets in Thailand as we do in the western world...