The Alfred Kinsey Scale(Continuum)

[brocklanders]

Well maybe I am not so crazy after all. Was watching some talk show where I heard two lesbians talking about a gay continuum and, of course, my ears lit up. Come to find out that the chief expert of sexuality seems to agree with me here. It's possible I subconciously processed this term when watching the move "Kinsey". His scale theory is a lot more raw and less sophisticated than the way I see it but this research was done during the middle of last century when research like this was considered beyond taboo. Of course, ladyboys are not theorized completely on this scale but I think we can all judge for ourselves where each of us fits.

[Groundhog]

Kinsey's sexuality continuum (in both his Male and Female studies) was revolutionary in his day. This was introduced at a time when 'homosexuality' was still a crime ... so the idea that all of us were X% criminal at heart was a shock to most (met by denial).

But I think the more modern view is that culture plays a huge conditioning role; and this builds on a rather flexible structure of emotions, hungers and needs.

Male dogs hump each other, sometimes as a sign of dominance, sometimes for fun. Similar for apes. I've seen a pet parakeet hump a carrot (go figure). The Romans thought male-male sex was 'pure' and certainly caused fewer problems on the march.

The 'continuum' was just a heuristic that has given way to a deeper understanding of 'why sex is fun' (to borrow a Jared Diamond title)

[Guest]

(brocklanders @ May 05 2007,06:43) I heard two lesbians talking about a gay continuum and, of course, my ears lit up.  

Your ears lit up?

Are you trying to say that your ears were burning as they spoke?

[Road Runner]

(brocklanders @ May 04 2007,22:43) Well maybe I am not so crazy after all.   Was watching some talk show where I heard two lesbians talking about a gay continuum and, of course, my ears lit up.  Come to find out that the chief expert of sexuality seems to agree with me here.   It's possible I subconciously processed this term when watching the move "Kinsey".    His scale theory is a lot more raw and less sophisticated than the way I see it but this research was done during the middle of last century when research like this was considered beyond taboo.    Of course, ladyboys are not theorized completely on this scale but I think we can all judge for ourselves where each of us fits.

I'm trying to work out how Kinsey is the 'chief expert of sexuality' bearing in mind that serious doubts have been raised about his research methods.
OK I know the guy was working at a time when talking about sex was pretty well taboo. But that does not excuse sloppy practices.

'gay continuum'  -  there's a snappy phrase.  What exactly does it mean?  
It sounds pretty much like the 'time continuum' mentioned in lots of US science fiction programs.

'Of course, ladyboys are not theorized completely on this scale but I think we can all judge for ourselves where each of us fits.'  
Yes I'm sure we could judge where we fit if we could theorize what the f*~k you were talking about.

In short  -  I've seen some bullshit spouted on this forum in my time but this definately wins the gold star for this year.

RR.

[stogie bear]

[Guest]

Howard Stern on feminine tendencies and Richard Simmons... HILARIOUS

Wikipedia: "Simmons has never spoken publicly about his personal life, though he has criticized those who 'assume' he is gay just because he 'doesn't act like a typical man.'"

If you don't "act like a typical man", but you don't fuck men either, where do you fit on the hallowed continuum?

[Guest]

(brocklanders @ May 05 2007,06:43) gay continuum

Brock Landers:

What is telling is that you refer to it as a "gay continuum." Gay is just one end-point. You could have chosen "straight continuum" or "gay-straight continuum" or "straight-gay continuum".

Kinsey himself never referred to it as a "gay continuum".

Perhaps your choice of words indicates your own bias towards where you fit on the continuum.

[Groundhog]

(Road Runner @ May 07 2007,04:50) ... serious doubts have been raised about his research methods... OK I know the guy was working at a time when talking about sex was pretty well taboo. But that does not excuse sloppy practices.

RR, I think that's a bit harsh w.r.t. Kinsey. True, he was dealing with relatively unreliable survey data (because people -- including (gasp!) people on this site -- lie about their sexual proclivities) and by modern standards, crude statistical methods (statistics didn't really flourish for surveys until the 1970s). But in the 1950s, his work was 'cutting edge' and given the limits of methods, I don't think can be said to be 'sloppy'

In fact, Kinsey was so obsessive that he drove himself to an early grave... the studies came out in '48 and '53, died of a heart attack in '56 (proof that sex can kill you?!)

[brocklanders]

It was a scale and he DID call it a continuum on many occasions.....it is a scale with heterosexuality on one end and homosexuality on the other.

You are right Road Runner, Alfred Kinsey is just a hack and you are the wisest one on this board.

You are right, every one of us is purely straight....whether you suck cock, get fucked up the ass or are just into posties. It's black and white.

Yeah, yeah...let's hear it from the peanut gallery with the "well if it feels good and nobody gets hurt, then who cares....." blah blah blah

To the outside world it doesnt matter anyways, I would be called a full blown fag for fucking a completely passable post op.

[Groundhog]

I'm right, I'm right, I'm right ... don't argue

I'm right!

[Road Runner]

Kinsey was criticized because he did not use any controls in most of his testing.  People do lie and while I admit that it is not easy to devise a way of weeding out most of the lies it's not impossible.
While I agree his research was cutting edge  -  I also think it was devalued by the amount of poor/innacurate data.

I do respect the guy for standing up and doing serious research into what is always going to be a difficult and emotive subject.
He brought the debate about sex and sexuality into the open and showed that it's not black and white.

Also his work did result in homosexuality no longer being considered as a mental illness in the US  -  and probably several other countries.

He came up with what he called the   Kinsey Scale.   I don't believe he ever used the phrase 'homosexual continuum'.
This is a modern construct and one I find largely meaningless.  Look up continuum in a half decent dictionary and then try to make sense of the phrase  

I don't remember seeing other than passing references to transsexuals in Kinsey's work.  My bet is he probably only met one or two out of the thousands that he interviewed. That is probably why;

ladyboys are not theorized completely on this scale

'not theorized completely?'  -  not mentioned at all !!!


It's good to be right Brokelanders  -  if you did your research properly you could try it sometime  


RR.

[Guest]

(brocklanders @ May 07 2007,17:05) To the outside world it doesnt matter anyways, I would be called a full blown fag for fucking a completely passable post op.

[Groundhog]

Good question, RR, as to whether Kinsey ever interviewed any transsexuals.

Surgery and hormones were very rare until the 1960s in the US (the hormones in the 40s and 50s where short acting, and I can't imagine anyone trying TG surgery ... they'd be expelled from the medical profession in those days for unethical practice).

Wikipedia tells of the earliest known Male to Female Sex Reassignment Surgery: Lili Elbe in Berlin, in 1930-1931. This was started with the removal of the male sex organs and was carried out by Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld. Lili went on to have four more subsequent operations that included an unsucessful ovarian transplant which resulted in her death. Here is her picture



He could have interviewed cross-dressers. There were apparently a good number of cross-dressers in stage performance in New Orleans, etc. (or ... like ... 50% of British theatre) ... I suppose he could have taken in a show or two

[brocklanders]

Well Roadrunner, my assumption is that througout the myriad of homosexuals interviewed that at least one or two were at a minimum cross dressers. It's definately an area that needs objective research. While Kinsey may have not used the word continuum, the analysis of his work frequently uses the word continuum and his use of the word scale is nearly exactly synonymous with a continuum.

I realize that many guys on this site are looking for rationalization that sucking a cock or getting fucked up the ass is not a gay act, even with a ladyboy...so I suppose any piece of research would be refuted to support this delusional rationalization. Again, not being homophobic here because I am nearly in the same boat as everyone else to the outside world but I believe we are not all in the same boat. Many of you were gay to begin with and ladyboys are just an extension of that.

[stogie bear]

Well Roadrunner, my assumption is that througout the myriad of homosexuals interviewed that at least one or two were at a minimum cross dressers...

Blimey... Why would you assume that? I'll bet anyone who came through the door with a bit of a mince on was politely told they weren't need for the survey.

Kinsey was the stuff of conversations at school in the early seventies when we read about him in magazines like Penthouse, Mayfair and Men Only...

His research is as reliable as a wine merchant grading stock by color. And decades later we are no closer.

Academics haven't a clue about the science of sexuality. They strut around with their beards and small glasses and worn lab coats with absolutely no idea what they are into. Still... it's ajob, innit!