Ladyboy Psychology

[Guest]

Do ladyboys identify with their female parent instead of their male parent, or do they form other, stronger bonds outside of their family?  

Are a significant percentage of ladyboys actually orphands?

[stogie bear]

Well, as you can well imagine... there are no factual details on any of this so those of us who decide to comment will rely on our own experiences and educated guess work.

First off - there is no evidence or experience of my own to suggest that orphans supply a disproportionately large number of ladyboys. In fact almost all ladyboys who I have encountered (including prostitutes) come from 'normal' strong families.

Ladyboys have a very strong sense of family and community... and I suspect that this is partly because of their yearning for what they may have missed out on during their adolescence. It may just be that it's because they are Thai!

It would make sense that children who are effeminate in nature would form stronger ties to their mothers and I believe that this is the case. I also believe that fathers over the last few years have become more and more supportive of their childrens chosen sexuality.

In fact it makes sense to me to suspect that fathers who are unsupportive probably have children who are secretive about their true sexual identities, whether they are gay, or ladyboys.

Unlike regular girl hookers, the ladyboy network amongst prostitutes is famously strong. The same applies to college girls who seem to stick together for support. They share secrets and dreams and ambitions the same way we lb lovers share beers and views on the Guess Bar!

All in all I wouldn't look for to many things that are different about ladyboys and the ladyboy community. It's better to see what is more similar and familiar about them.

Don't be fooled into thinking that ladyboys you meet in Nana plaza are typical of all ladyboys. They are NOT! These girls represent a miniscule proportion of the ladyboys that live in Thailand and the chances are that as a visitor you'll never even talk to a really cute sexy ladyboy who has a degree and a good job even though there are tens of thousands more of them.

Having said that there are gems to be found within the P4P trade and you can sometimes get lucky (as I seem to be) in occasionally finding some good girls to hang out with.

[rxpharm]

SB points are pretty similar to my knowledge of the lb scene in Thailand.

Most lbs I have met have a close relationship with their mothers. A few have been estranged from their fathers, but I don't think it is very many. Most fathers seem to accept their new daughters after a period of time, but it seemed there was often some rough spots.

As for orphans, I think you may be simply speculating here. I don't think the incidence of orphan lbs is any higher than running into anyone else who grew up as an orphan.

[JackG]

Isn't it extremely common, almost the norm, among the poorer classes (which is the majority of the population) for a Thai male to father a child and then leave or deny responsiblity? As a result, isn't it common for a Thai child to grow up without a male role model?

[stogie bear]

(JackG @ May 19 2007,16:04) Isn't it extremely common, almost the norm, among the poorer classes (which is the majority of the population) for a Thai male to father a child and then leave or deny responsiblity?  As a result, isn't it common for a Thai child to grow up without a male role model?

Obviously a joke. Take no notice of this ridiculous speculative and entirely off the mark post.

[Road Runner]

Hello Stogie,

I think you're being a bit harsh  


Hello JackG,

I would say the situation is no worse than many western countries in my limited experience.
Nor would I say it's specifically poor fathers - as having a 'minor wife' and pre-marital flings seem to be pretty common across the social classes.  In fact it's not un-common for rich powerful mean to have more than one minor wife.

I do suspect that it's poor women who get more taken advantage of as money/power is respected in Thailand as in many Asian countries and this tends to limit the mothers chances of getting any form of redress.

Where you are wrong is that Thai families are very close so normally the mother will have support of parents/aunts/uncles/cousins  
-  lots of cousins!  
There will nearly always be both a male head of the family and a female head  -  though even there they may not be husband and wife.

One good thing in Thailand is that the husband and wife are usually on pretty equal terms.
From what I have read this was apparently even the case in the days when a buffalo was worth 3 women  -  not a joke!
The father is the notional head and major decisions are always deferred to him.
The mother tends to look after the finances and is boss in the house.

RR.

[Guest]

I saw an interesting-looking book on Amazon last year: "The Third Sex: Kathoey: Thailand's Ladyboys" by Richard Totman.

The Third Sex: Kathoey: ...

I'm going to submit a request to the Seattle Public Library to see if they are willing to purchase this book. They have done so for other requests I've made in the past. Seattle is typically very friendly to non-heterosexuals.

I don't see ladyboys as only adult entertainment professionals. I'm curious about their basic humanity.

[stogie bear]

[PigDogg]

(mesohony @ May 19 2007,07:23) I saw an interesting-looking book on Amazon last year: "The Third Sex: Kathoey: Thailand's Ladyboys" by Richard Totman.

I'm going to submit a request to the Seattle Public Library to see if they are willing to purchase this book. They have done so for other requests I've made in the past. Seattle is typically very friendly to non-heterosexuals.

It's a scholarly work that should be in the library.

While you're at it throw in a request for ATS membership for the library's computers and Ziggy's calendar for the wall!    

[Guest]

As Stogie would say, "Rubbish".

Look guys, they aren't fucking aliens you know. This goes back to my post on "ridiculous questions".

They are just young girls. There are 1000 books on Thai society, where, forget about LBs, ALL THAIS associate with the mother figure as one of strength and compassion in the family. The mother is revered by all Thais, male, female, LB, and anything in between. This is very well documented. Likewise, it is well documented how males are not the greatest of fathers in Thailand (has nothing to do with LBs). Why in the world do you think LBs are like an alternate being?

As for close relationships amongst LBs, yes, that is certainly true. Generally I think, most minorities in society tend to bond together stronger than majorities. Ever notice all the deaf people who hang out with each other on Sukhumbit? Or gays? Once again, they ain't aliens, it's just common globally for like to associate with like.

You can read The Third Sex, which is not so great, or Quest for Ladyboys, which is horrible, and any number of books written by people who visit Thailand for a month or year, and 'observe' LBs, then write a book. They are generally pretty poor. I have yet to see a book by a true LB lover who has been here long enough to understand any depth of the society.

I cannot think of any peculiar habbit of LBs that would make them an 'alien' (vs just another guy or girl), except for an obsession with appearance, to appear feminine, and more virility, due to testosterone. But LBs in general, are just little guys when they're young, and little girls when they're older, and they have all the social attributes of those people.

I'm sure someone will jump in and say the LB bar girls are so different from girls. True to some extend. And the girls who work in bars are also so different from non-working girls too.

[JackG]

(stogie bear @ May 19 2007,16:28)

(JackG @ May 19 2007,16:04) Isn't it extremely common, almost the norm, among the poorer classes (which is the majority of the population) for a Thai male to father a child and then leave or deny responsiblity?  As a result, isn't it common for a Thai child to grow up without a male role model?

 Obviously a joke. Take no notice of this ridiculous speculative and entirely off the mark post.

Not a joke or a "ridiculous speculative," (shouldn't that be, speculation?) but based on what I've observed in my trips to The Kingdom and what I've been told by two friends who have lived there for the last 15-20 years. One is married to a Thai and the both employ a large number of Thai. I would think that to be as successful as they have been in Thailand over the years, they must have gained some knowledge and understanding of the people and their culture.

Road Runner, Thank you for you intelligent response.

[Guest]

I don't see how not having a male role model = LB.

That would be an interesting pschology study, and likely one that will fail. With about 50% or more divorce rates in all western countries, I think, well, 50% of children are growing up without male role models, or distant models, yet we don't see an abundance of LBs in the west.

None of us know why there are more LBs in Thailand, and there have been lots of conjecture on that, but I feel pretty confident to say it is not related to not having male role models. Most LBs I know have fathers at home!

[PigDogg]

(ziggystardust @ May 19 2007,12:00) I have yet to see a book by a true LB lover who has been here long enough to understand any depth of the society.

I think you and Stogie need to colaborate on the definitive ladyboy book!

[Guest]

I think the forum proves that such a collaboration would be impossible.

Wait for my book in the first quarter of 2010 !

[stogie bear]

(ziggystardust @ May 21 2007,00:40) I think the forum proves that such a collaboration would be impossible.

He's right... Only half the book would make any sense!