Criticism of a Gender Theory...

[Snick]

Interesting article in the New York times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/he.../21gender.html

[Tomcat]

Sounds like the plot for a good film..Bailey has certainly been weaving a complex web...

[Guest]

Transgender activitists are as brutal as feminists of old.

[harley quinn]

What intrigues me about this sort of heated academic debate is that even if it comes to a conclusion with one or other theory being seen to be correct - so what?

People of whatever biological gender who wish to cross dress, avail themselves SRS or hormone therapy will still do so. People like us - dear readers - who enjoy being with such people will still seek them out.

As I get older I find the views of the late Nikita Kruschev that the best way to get academic consensus was to shoot  a few academics more and more attractive (as long as nobody really shoots anyone of course)

[Tomcat]

Science by definition is a moving body of knowledge.
No Scientist can ever say that ,, this is true,,. Remember that a theory must be able to be falsified otherwise its useless...

There are no theories that are deemed perfect . Of course any Academic worth his salt will argue his case but most will admit that what they propagate are just models and can only approximate the reality as they see it.

The human brain is the most complex thing that we know of in the known universe and so its no wonder that anything that relates to it is complex.

[jaymee]

I'm a blanchard advocate in some respect - though the theory is deragotory in some respects (some people say divisive) but at the very least, it pushes boundaries to compel deeper academic and scientific review on the subject. For instance, the much prescribed Zhou et al (1995) brain study thingy couldn't be replicated - and the Chung et al (2002) by the same researchers seemed to debunk the previous study.

I think you folks may probably appreciate the fact as well about the empirical differences in the at least 2 major types of transgirls.

There's a whole lot more politics involved rather than any meaningful studies/debate conducted, therefore I have gradually detached myself substantially from this subjects - have to agree that the activists are overly brutal and sometimes I do feel strongly that their actions somewhat colonize the voices of some transgirls, for instance the latina or asian demographic who seem to have really different etiological pathways.

It may as well be that these demographics tend to be alot more apathetic to activism hence their views tend not to be representative of the trans community as a whole.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(stogie bear @ Dec. 24 2007,20:19)

There's a whole lot more politics involved rather than any meaningful studies/debate conducted...

 You got that right.

Scholars and academics are paid for or stupid and rarely have much insight or reliable information about transgenderd people.

A major problem is of the tossers who fancy themselves academics. People who are enamoured by their own vapours asphyxiate themselves and anyone standing too close.

The reality is that there are lots of smart people who are curious, who propose new ideas and who are open to debate, and who thereby advance knowledge, without putting on airs. It is possible to be an academic without sounding like a pretentious, vainglorious windbag.

I have to admit my bias though: brainy women are the ultimate turn-on for me. I'm always fascinated by a woman who knows more than me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT7XOlPWsN8

[Fred_Nguyen]

Steward, you're a funny guy and I do not dislike Ziggy, but I will admit that I am not a student of the Ziggyist school.

However, to get the topic back on track, I would like to hear Jaymee's thoughts about how she classifies transwomen (she alluded to at least 2 major types).

Also, she mentioned the studies about brains of transsexuals. A condition with some relevance is that of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS), in which there are normal testosterone levels but no effect of testosterone on any of the cells in the body, due to lack of functioning receptors for testosterone. Women with this condition are extremely lithe and feminine physically; emotionally, they are hyper-feminine (normally, neurons do have functioning steroid receptors, but in the case of complete AIS, the nerve cells do not respond to testosterone). There are incomplete forms of AIS, in which the cellular receptor for testosterone has partial function, enabling various degrees of masculinization.

I wonder if there is a subset of transsexual women who have functioning receptors for testosterone in most organs, but perhaps not in their brains. This might explain the mind-body disconnect that characterizes women with significant gender dysphoria from an early age.

Just a theory...

[Tomcat]

(Fred_Nguyen @ Dec. 25 2007,01:05) A major problem is of the tossers who fancy themselves academics

This forum should be renamed ,,Ladyboys, the lives and trial of,, ....

Lets face it no Academic worth his monthly salt would ever post on a porno forum for a start. Secondly , i dont remember seeing one proper major study in recent times that actually relates to Katoeys so there is very little meat to chew on.

Its pretty obvious that anything vaguely academic gets shot down anyway....so whats the point of calling the forum Academia? .

[Stewart]

Its pretty obvious that anything vaguely academic gets shot down anyway....so whats the point of calling the forum Academia? .

I had thought this forum might be a place for more reasoned discussion on ISSUES, rather than simple minded tabloid comments on personalities

So I would argue treat it properly or kill it altogether

[stogie bear]

I actually started to like the idea of a balanced even debate on serious topics related to transgendered but as you say - on a porno site it probably can't work very well.

[rxpharm]

I agree, it is not likely for a porno site to have an Academia Forum, especially given the diverse personalities found on this board.

I disagree with merging it with the Fish Box though - there are still a few people who have benefited from this Forum, and some new members who will find it useful.

To characterize the people who post here as Blowhards and their idiotic musings reveals the essential character of those wish to have a "reasoned and serious discussion". It is far too easy to fall into derogatory character assassination behind the anonymity of the keyboard.

So, in essence you wish to eliminate a part of the Forum that distinguishes it from the boards, because there is a personal dislike for someone - regardless of what is actually posted.

Stewart tried to focus things on the actual subjects, and he is dismissed as a brown noser. I won't defend him as he is more than capable of defending himself.

One of the other "reasonable" moderators is no longer a moderator. I am not sure of the reason why, but I have my suspicions. If the tone of the forum continues on like this, I think there will be one less moderator as well.

[jaymee]

I'm alot less tempted to identify the biological etiology of transsexuals to be honest since its really an extremely grey area - I mean the brain study hasn't been replicated and it was conducted with a really small sample with many variables unmentioned - plus the follow up study by the same researchers seemed to debunk it.

I'm not an AIS person so I wouldn't want to represent their experiences and conditions - I think the intersex community has alot of problems dealing with some transgendered folks trying to invade their area - IS folks deal alot more with preventing unwanted surgery which is a totally different consideration from trans folks.

TSism wise, I do think there is a biological aspect as well as an environmental aspect - but alot of studies have somehow negated the possibility of certain environmental conditions such as pre natal trauma which I think causes a certain type of transsexuality - the focus seems to be alot more on genetics or early childhood experiences.

Like heart disease which maybe be due to a variety of factors leading to the same end cause - I believe tsism is the same somewhat.

The two types I'm thinking of? Perhaps Fred you can share with me if you notice certain intrinsic differences in transsexuals... key markers I've always noticed is the physicality as well as the sexuality - I've actually checked up studies to see as well if this biases are scientifically proven - and it seems there is a certain element of plausibility to it.

Refer to this article which is about sexuality vs body size
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites....8561663

But i guess whatever my opinions are (or whatever these studies indicate), they are by no means exhaustive to the wide spectur4m that we live in.

[stogie bear]

(Stewart @ Dec. 25 2007,17:20)

Its pretty obvious that anything vaguely academic gets shot down anyway....so whats the point of calling the forum Academia? .

I had thought this forum might be a place for more reasoned discussion on ISSUES, rather than simple minded tabloid comments on personalities

So I would argue treat it properly or kill it altogether

Agreed...

This topic has been edited/amended so it follows the guidelines set out for this forum.

[Fred_Nguyen]

(jaymee @ Dec. 25 2007,19:41) I'm alot less tempted to identify the biological etiology of transsexuals to be honest since its really an extremely grey area - I mean the brain study hasn't been replicated and it was conducted with a really small sample with many variables unmentioned - plus the follow up study by the same researchers seemed to debunk it.

I'm not an AIS person so I wouldn't want to represent their experiences and conditions - I think the intersex community has alot of problems dealing with some transgendered folks trying to invade their area - IS folks deal alot more with preventing unwanted surgery which is a totally different consideration from trans folks.

TSism wise, I do think there is a biological aspect as well as an environmental aspect - but alot of studies have somehow negated the possibility of certain environmental conditions such as pre natal trauma which I think causes a certain type of transsexuality - the focus seems to be alot more on genetics or early childhood experiences.

Like heart disease which maybe be due to a variety of factors leading to the same end cause - I believe tsism is the same somewhat.

The two types I'm thinking of? Perhaps Fred you can share with me if you notice certain intrinsic differences in transsexuals... key markers I've always noticed is the physicality as well as the sexuality - I've actually checked up studies to see as well if this biases are scientifically proven - and it seems there is a certain element of plausibility to it.

Refer to this article which is about sexuality vs body size
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites....8561663

But i guess whatever my opinions are (or whatever these studies indicate), they are by no means exhaustive to the wide spectur4m that we live in.

Coming from a science background I am sometimes tempted to search for completely biological, organic explanations to problems in which the mind seems at odds with the body.

I am steadily becoming more of a dualist. I don't know if I buy the whole platonic bit entirely, if I understand it correctly, Plato seemed to think that the mind was the soul, and the soul and body were separate creatures with the soul captured by the body. (I wonder how he would explain Ziggy...)

Seems a bit speculative and without evidence to me. But I concede that really don't know how to define or explain the mind. My skepticism leads me one way, but that is not entirely satisfying an explanation.

As far as the physical characteristics, I don't know if one can be a dualist and then identify groups, which are ostensibly based on behavior and onset of transsexuality and governed by the province of the mind, but then fall back on physical characteristics to also define the groups. It is obviously a tough area for me and I am in no way an expert.

I need some wine.