The Ladyboy Conundrum

[transcebu]

Nice summary pacman!
While there is economic incentive, there will be some who change to adapt to it. The degree to which this plays a role will always be debatable as it's one of the varied contributing factors you mention above.

I think part of the boom in the appearance of PI transwomen has been the fact that many of them have been able to find online sponsors and bringing home a few dollars has helped a lot in terms of their being accepted and appreciated. Occasionally one of the local transgirls hits the jackpot with a generous benefactor and some even get taken abroad and these types of stories spread like wildfire amongst the feminine gay types growing up, who now see life as a transwomen as something not only acceptable, but potentially favorable and lucrative.

This is far from the sole reason why feminine gays are becoming transwomen, but it has helped to make transwomen there more common, more acceptable in families, less afraid to come out and join the growing throngs of trans that have become a highly visible part of just about every neighborhood.

While the actions of some of these transwomen have given them a bad reputation, the Internet has allowed somewhat of a gender revolution to occur, and I think that's a good thing. They may be the country that leads the world in setting an example for trans acceptance. Something the Thais are less likely to do due to their language and cultural isolationism.

[Torurot]

(pacman @ Jan. 06 2011,22:48) There is some excellent information in this thread already. I was well aware of the damage caused to DNA by the injudicious use of chemicals in the food chain & the environment but I had included enough information in my post without getting into more detail.

A few thought Pacman: If it was as simple as    "chemicals" in the food chain wouldn't Vietnam with it's millions of gallons of Agent Orange/Green/Blue and other horrors poured on it be a more likely candidate to have more Katoey??

Then there is the popular myth how all Thais respect katoeys as equal members of the community - many do but I see discrimination against them all over the place. From not being allowed in hotels, bars & restaurants to them not being allowed to marry or be identified as 'female', even after SRS. Incredible to any reasonable person.

Cough..... and Australia   is a model of 'gay' tolerance?    Before we clobber the Thais,    how long ago was it that the law was changed in Oz to allow identity as female, and marriage etc to be recognised...  

It is a sad fact that in many villages, children are seen as a valuable resource who can be used to provide for unemployed families.

If we accept that the outback of Thailand is pretty "third" world then it is the SAME the world over. It is only in the affluent "west" where there are child labour laws, and EVEN in Oz if you come from the farm you are going to helping Mum & Dad work it whether you like it or not. Not that I see that as bad so long as you also get time for education. Remember going to school in many parts is NOT FREE like it is back home (for most of us).

And where there aren't many female babies then boys can be recruited to the cause & can be just as effective in sending money home.

Isn't the male/female ratio pretty standard world wide?? Is Thailand like India/China where female babies are often aborted in favour of male children where ratios can get badly skewed??

[guydesavoy]

(Torurot @ Jan. 07 2011,17:07)  how long ago was it that the law was changed in Oz to allow identity as female,

1987

[Torurot]

Further ago than I thought. While your there, how about gay tolerance, and 'gay' marriage from Mr & Mrs OZ average who don't live in the big smoke?? Maybe it changed just a little after "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" came out.....

[guydesavoy]

Priscilla has a lot to answer for ...

I'll let Paccie fill you in on the details of the local scene

[Tomcat]

(pacman @ Jan. 06 2011,22:48) WTF is going on?

IMO
What is going on is that the Culture in Thailand is more friendly to our TS friends than say compared to Estonia.

When you stack up all the many reasons that have been listed by Bumpa, Kahuna, Tcebu and others its no surprise is it . As you already stated LOS has a 300 year head start in the Culture stakes before you pick up on the body type, old grannies, race profile, money and so annd on which act as another " force" . ( Nurture)

The at birth genetic preponderance to be a transex may be the same in all countries for all we know . But once off the starting blocks it changes pretty quickly in certain places . or so it seems

[rxpharm]

An interesting insight from a student sitting a course in LOS.

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[rxpharm]

An interesting counter to the thought that Isaan grandmothers can shape a little boy to become a ladyboy.

This is a link to the David Reimer story. David was an one of an identical pair of twin baby boys. Unfortunately when he was 8 months of age, both brothers were diagnosed with phimosis and were referred to have circumcision. However something went horribly wrong as the urologist used a non-conventional method of cauterization and accidentally burnt David's penis beyond surgical repair.

The distraught parents were advised to see Dr. John Money, a famed psychologist at John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore who specialized in sexology. They were advised/convinced to raise this twin as a girl - as Dr. Money believed nurture would trump nature in forming sexual identity.

Despite Dr. Money's publications that stated the contrary, David Reimer was never happy or comfortable as a girl - despite having SRS and hormone therapy. At age 14 he decided to revert to being a male, however never had a happy life.

Here is a link to the story: Davide Reimer - Wikipedia.

[TTChang]

They may be mistaken, but most ladyboys I know believe they were born that way, and for a reason linked to their previous life.   Not from Mars ...... or 'manufactured' in Udon Thani!

[guydesavoy]

(rxpharm @ Jan. 11 2011,10:51) An interesting counter to the thought that Isaan grandmothers can shape a little boy to become a ladyboy....

David Reimer was never happy or comfortable as a girl - despite having SRS and hormone therapy. At age 14 he decided to revert to being a male, however never had a happy life.

Interesting point Rx. Whatever the reasons, background, history or theory, it seems quite rare to hear (in the Thai LB context) any stories of them actually regretting their current situation (gender wise).

It would seem that there is some some pre-existing element

[Bumpa STIKKA]

[pacman]

(Torurot @ Jan. 07 2011,17:07) A few thought Pacman:  If it was as simple as    "chemicals" in the food chain wouldn't Vietnam with it's millions of gallons of Agent Orange/Green/Blue and other horrors poured on it be a more likely candidate to have more Katoey??

Two things about this comment - 1) I have no idea which chemicals are responsible for what in the food chain but Agent Orange has never been used in LOS as far as I know.

2) Given the exposure of the Vietnamese to all those chemicals, the fact that there aren't the numbers of ladyboys in Vietnam then leaves us with the question - why are there so many more LBs in LOS (especially Issan) than we see in Vietnam?

Cough..... and Australia   is a model of 'gay' tolerance?    Before we clobber the Thais,    how long ago was it that the law was changed in Oz to allow identity as female, and marriage etc to be recognised...  

Who is clobbering the Thais? And what has the question of gay rights in Oz have to do with my musings about the numbers of LBs in LOS? Nothing, that's what!

Isn't the male/female ratio pretty standard world wide??  Is Thailand like India/China where female babies are often aborted in favour of male children where ratios can get badly skewed??

I have never heard of Thailand having unequal numbers of boy babies to girls. And in a Buddhist country, I am sure all children are welcomed equally. I was only surmising on the possibility that a family may have all boys & no girls, I wasn't suggesting that there is some inbalance in the spread of sexes.

[pacman]

(TTChang @ Jan. 11 2011,17:05) They may be mistaken, but most ladyboys I know believe they were born that way, and for a reason linked to their previous life.   Not from Mars ...... or 'manufactured' in Udon Thani!

My own questions have been met with much the same answer, that the girl always felt she was born "lay-dee".

I haven't heard about their previous life connection but knowing how deeply superstitious they are, this comes as no surprise at all. I have been told some strange stories connected to their beliefs but I don't remember anything about being a lady who has come back. Or whatever it was they told you.

And I don't have some axe to grind about "manufacturing" as you put it, I mentioned it because I know many guys wouldn't have heard the story. I get a strong feeling that some think I have made it up. Trust me, it isn't some invention on my part, please post any story that refutes it or confirms it.

[pacman]

(rxpharm @ Jan. 11 2011,10:36) An interesting insight from a student sitting a course in LOS.

Thanks for that RX. A touch of pathos in her story when she says "no one wants to be born like this".

But are they born like it or are they helped along the way before they know what is happening to them? Forget about the "mad old grannie", how can one family produce two or three LBs if the chance of a TS is a statistical abberation? i.e. one in a thousand event.

Or what about a village that produces a dozen or more over a couple of years? This is way beyond coincidence.

I keep coming back to my original assertion, something weird is going on in Issan to produce these numbers. Couple this up with reputable accounts of hormone intervention & of boys identified as LBs before they are school age.

As Horatio said: "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark".

[pacman]

(rxpharm @ Jan. 11 2011,10:51) An interesting counter to the thought that Isaan grandmothers can shape a little boy to become a ladyboy.

This is a link to the David Reimer story......      At age 14 he decided to revert to being a male, however never had a happy life.

That has to be one of the saddest stories ever. But I don't concede that it counteracts what happens in LOS. It certainly was tragic for young David & I am sure his circumstances would apply to some ladyboys.

Whether a few or a lot, I have absolutely no idea but if we could ever get them to speak truthfully about how they really feel, we may get a surprise.

It is the definition of truth as Thais understand it that stops us from ever knowing. With their acceptance of their karma & how everything that happens to them is either bad karma from a previous life or bad behaviour in this life (yes, I know I am generalising AGAIN) but a Thai LB is FAR more likely to accept her fate than poor old David.

David must have instinctively known he wasn't female despite his hormone regime & SRS, his fight to become who he was must have been torture. Thai LBs on the other hand are expected to accept who they are. And I have never met one who said she was trapped. I have met a few who were only LB while it suited them though.

Individual examples would be far more instructive to explain the feelings of the girls, unfortunately I don't have any individual stories to tell.