When not to call them Ladyboy

[srb]

Something that occured to me a moment ago, as I read about someone who married a ladyboy. After marriage the operation was had and they are man and wife. I have little doubt that he loves her, refers to her as his wife and as female, not male or transgendered and its a great story.

Is there a point - as there seems to be in other countries - where a ladyboy has had the operation, lives as a woman, perhaps even changes name legally, and is formally recognised as such? I suspect not so in Thailand as far as authorities go, what about in society?

I have a vision of the woman I refer to above visiting home after complete acceptance as a woman in her adopted country, only to be a ladyboy again when visiting - I'd imagine that's pretty hard.

[Road Runner]

I'm guessing that you are refering only to when they are in Thailand.

There is no legal status for a ladyboy in Thailand - the law only recognises male or female.
However in society they have been recognised as far back as writing goes and probably well before that.

My experience has been that Thai's talk about male, female, or ladyboys (or a couple of other variations like people of the third sex).
Even after SRS they will still be considered as ladyboys.

When it comes to conversation most of the time they are refered to using female terms and that is in my experience what they prefer.
I have seen at first hand where some red-neck Thai has refered to them in male terms and although it would be showing loss of face to show hurt I do know that it has caused offence.

With my Ex any direct conversations about her gender we both used the term ladyboy (or ladyman).
In normal conversation between us and within her family it was always female terms that were used.

RR.

[si geena]

I don't call my girl a ladyboy at all. Though by the strict definition, she is one. I see her as completely female. Hell, she even wants to have my babies!

If she's from my country, she'll have been recognised as female and have all her official documents changed to reflect that. Too bad, she's from Thailand. Probably another 10 years before the government will change, and that's a big hope.

[srb]

Sorry RR I wasn't clear in my ramblings mainly as I was a bit focussed on what terms to use without offence...yes Thailand!

Thanks guys thats a bit clearer. It strikes me that change will never come without a fight from the ladyboys themselves along with more political transgender support organisations in the re-education of people and their views; no small task. Even they themselves seem (from the little I've seen) to reiterate it - "I'm ladyboy" - which is simply both the truth on one hand and a commercial necessity on the other at least with P4P.

Aside from the bigger picture, I was just wondering if there's a 'tipping point' for an individual where one day the term ladyboy is not wanted ('him' or 'he' never being desirable as you say RR) and they really do want to be known as female but have almost no chance of that. I'm likely babbling and not being clear.

I think I already know the answer anyway; in Thailand they are stuck as ladyboys. Take them into another culture (perhaps not Asia generally) and they are more free to become recognised as female. Unless they're at the doctors  

[manarak]

wait wait

if you compare with another thread on this forum, you will find that not all ladyboys want to be 100% female, i.e. with operation and such.

Often they like their cock and their tits, and plan no operation at all, and are quite happy with belonging to a third sex, being a ladyboy.

That's how I like them.


I hope it is clear that "recognition as a woman" is not the same as "recognition as a ladyboy".

In the first case, I support the request that Post-Op ladyboys should be recognized as women.

But this is not "recognizing ladyboys". It is just giving post-op ladyboys the same rights as women.
In fact, for the ladyboys I like, i.e. those who keep their dick, it changes nothing.

"Recognizing ladyboys" would mean that the law would accept a third sex "ladyboy" which is neither man nor woman.

[stringer]

Thailand is extremely accepting of it's ladyboy population to be sure, at least socially and RR addressed the matter of "formal recognition"... there ain't none. Ladyboys are everywhere you look here.  No one points fingers, gestures behind their backs, or makes snide comments.

In conversation, I might ask a girl... so how long have you been living as a woman, not how long have you been a ladyboy. I seriously doubt if offense would be taken if the latter. I would however never use the word katooey, for obvious reasons.

Where I come from if you saw some guy dressed as a woman that day it would have been the main topic of conversation at the dinner table.  In Thailand no one bats an eye. An interesting note is that the Thais call ladyboys... sao phra phet song... which does not translate as the "third sex", but rather woman of the second category...

[kahuna]

What nonsense...Ladyboys are ladyboys...nothing more nothing less...

You are only trying to make yourselves feel better about yourselves...

No matter what they do to their bodies, they are and always will be ladyboys..

Well, except for those who are simply boys with long hair...

[stringer]

(kahuna @ Sep. 12 2008,08:01)
What nonsense...Ladyboys are ladyboys...nothing more nothing  less...

Say what? Not sure I grasp exactly what it is you're referring to as nonsense.  And as far as trying to appease less than desirable feelings about ones self... huh?  Well, you really lost me there geezer. Perhaps you would be so kind as to elucidate on that little bit. Ladyboys are ladyboys are ladyboys...even after reconstructive surgery? I suppose so, but who cares. And in all honesty is that really a point worth making.  I believe the originator of this thread was wondering about the "legality" of being recognized as such in Thailand and the social implications as well.

[kahuna]

(stringer @ Sep. 12 2008,09:36) I suppose so, but who cares. And in all honesty is that really a point worth making.  I believe the originator of this thread was wondering about the "legality" of being recognized as such in Thailand and the social implications as well.

Obviously you and the OP care...

And I'm sorry but the title of this thread is "When not to call them Ladyboy."

As poor as the grammer is, the intent it clear...Get a grip mate...they're boys...and in their scoiety they are ladyboys...forever ladyboys...

In your mind you can make of them what you want...Call them women or girls if that makes you happy...But in their world and in their minds, I believe you are way off the mark...

Cheers,

Kahuna

[stringer]

Yeah, last of a dying breed who cares enough to answer a polite inquiry in a polite manner. I do notice sir that you refer to your current squeeze as, "the little sweetie I've been hanging around with". And that makes you happy I guess.  I certainly find no fault in that.  Lord knows ladyboys can be sweeties.  I am curious though, how you introduce your "little sweetie" to your mates.  Is it like, hey fellas, this is my ladyboy Nit or, my little sweetie...Neung, or is it... this is my boyfriend Natty, she, I mean he, is really a ladyboy don't cha know.  How do the Thais do it many I ask?  You know, run of the mill middle class Thais who's ladyboy partners don't happen to be hookers.  I assume you've spent a fair amount of time with them right?

So... when not to call them ladyboys?  How about when it's polite not to. When you know they prefer to be addressed in the feminine and refered to as women.  I think I got a grip on that one mate.  No foolin.  

What I can't "get a grip" on is this...

In your mind you can make of them what you want...Call them women or girls if that makes you happy...But in their world and in their minds, I believe you are way off the mark...

I mean, if in their world and in their minds I am somehow "off the mark" to call them women.  Hummmm then I understand far less about the society I've been living for the past 10 years than I thought.

cheers...

stringer

[sev7en]

(kahuna @ Sep. 12 2008,11:26) Get a grip mate...they're boys...and in their scoiety they are ladyboys...forever ladyboys...

In your mind you can make of them what you want...Call them women or girls if that makes you happy...But in their world and in their minds, I believe you are way off the mark...

Cheers,

Kahuna

Wish i had kahunas way of putting things easy. Not complicate things.
Great post, i´ll laminate that one, i think.

[srb]

Thanks chaps I appreciate the replies, though when Kahuna jumps in I usually regret saying anything at all. How about you don't bother to answer my posts if you're just going to be aggressive, patronising and opinionated?  

All I was asking was what is polite in terms of the LB's - what is comfortable for them, and what is societies take. Exactly as stringer says. So yes Kahuna I do care. I didn't ask what you want or do, I was interested in what they want, and what they at times have to accept; but I guess you answered the latter part pretty well!  

I do hope my grammar is acceptable this time. I spent an extra specially long time with a dictionary and theo...theosau...thersaur...thesawus....a big book that gives alternatives to words.

Stringer - thanks for thinking about it  

[seamus]

Well I have spoken to girls from Indonesia, Phil & SG & all refer to themselves as TS & not Ladyboys. So there ya go , depends where they come from

[Lefty]

Different experience for me seamus regarding the Phils. I've been regular friends or a little more, for some years with 4 from there and every one of them refers to themselves as a ladyboy.

[bigmick22]

and the Pi girls always told me they liked to be called T-girls